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  1. #1
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    I decided to flesh out the different economies of the various nations. I
    started with an assumption that three things would govern relations in a
    given nation. The climate, the geography, and the dominant religion. So,
    for the Brecht, I looked at cold winters and hot summers, a mountainous
    terrain, and the influence of Sera. And so for each nation. Here is what I
    came up with.

    I`ll mention the Vos first, because they don`t really have an economic
    theory. They have a social theory with economic implications, but they
    don`t value production itself. Their economic ideas focus on distribution,
    mostly through raiding. They seem to produce slightly (or even well) below
    a subsistance level, and make up the difference in raiding or hunting. When
    they don`t make up the shortfall, the weak are left to starve. Tools are
    mostly poor in quality, very few in number, and this means that the
    technology for producing weapons and armor is pretty rare in Vos lands. Any
    smith capable of making a master work weapon is probabaly what the vikings
    called a "famous smith". A far larger source of masterwork weapons is
    probabaly the Brecht. As I will detail later, the Brecht probably produce a
    lot of masterwork weapons. Land is probabaly poorly maintained, little
    investment is made in infrastructure, and hence, the Vos are probabaly
    semi-nomadic, villages moving every several years.

    Anuire is a warm, well watered land, mostly flat with and ideally suited for
    agriculture. Haelyn`s ideology supports a flat social structure in which
    most people are probabaly yeoman farmers. Haelyn`s ideology also supports
    stability. All this considered, Anuire is probabaly dominated by a form of
    the manorial system. Private ownership will be weak, ownership will be
    strongly communal, and tools and animals will be shared by customary
    regulation. Carl Cramér`s post contrasting our atomistic society with a
    more organic society goes to the heart of Anuire. A strong element of
    justice will influence economic thinking in Anuire, emphising fair access
    and reciprocity to a great degree. Two smiths of vastly different skill
    might still get the same amount of work from the community because it is not
    just for one man to starve while another man profits. A look around Anuire
    may reveal that most common tools are not masterwork, and that only the
    Rjurik and Vos have fewer masterwork tools. Tools will be loaned and
    borrowed by custom, and it will be an injustice not to loan a required tool.
    Equity is the end result. Most individuals probably have very similar
    standards of living, because those who are able are required to assist those
    who are in need. This is both just, but it is embeded in the principle of
    chivalry. The strong protect the weak. It is a duty.

    In non-peer relations differences certainly exist. The noble is clearly
    wealthier than the farmer. However, the principle of justice remains. The
    lord is obligated to protect his tenents (renting freemen) from crime,
    invasion, and hardship. In addition to providing courts for justice and
    embracing the knighly life style to be ready to repell invaders, the
    Anuirean lord also regulates economic activity to promote equity and also
    stability.

    Stability, along with justice, is a core element of Haelyn`s ideology. This
    will be served by some attention to sustainable practice (though not nearly
    to the extent that the Rjurik do, following Erik`s teaching). It will be
    served by the managed cooperation just discussed. But mostly it will be
    served by constantly putting as much of the surplus back into the economy as
    possible in the form of infrastructure and improvements. The Anuirean
    emphisis on equity and stability will tend to undermine its productivity.
    In terms of return on investment, Anuire probabaly produces substantially
    less than the Brecht and noticably less than the Khinasi. However, the land
    is rich, well watered, warm, and flat, so in terms of final income, the
    Anuireans do about the same as everyone else. The emphisis certainly is not
    on making a profit, it is on taking care to see that everyone has what the
    need, and that it will be this way for a long time. Its just, orderly, and
    stable, and it achives this by regulation, law, and custom.

    Towns in Anuire are more administrative centers than elsewhere. Trade
    comprises a smaller share of the town`s life. Courts, archives, chanceries,
    and officials play a much larger role in urban life in Anuire than they do
    in other nations.

    In Rjurik lands, the teachings of Erik hold sway, and that means a focus on
    sustainability as the highest goal, and little desire to maximize
    productivity. Where Anuire puts the needs of the community above those of
    the individual, Rjurik puts the needs of nature before the individual. As
    the Rjurik say, this orchard will produce as much and as good for my great,
    great grandson son as it does for me. The land is cold much of the year,
    although the land is flat and well watered. The Rjurik suffer from a lack
    of tools, materials, and skills. Their focus on the preservation of the
    land tends to prevent them from becoming more effecient users of the land.
    Rjurik tool makers are sometimes quite good, but the good ones are too few,
    and there is no great plentitude of tool makers over all. While some of
    this might be overcome by an Anuirean focus on cooperation, sharing, and
    mutual assistance, Erik demands that each individual be capable of fending
    from himself. As such tools are often absent, or of inferior quality
    because each household is limited to its own resources. As a result, while
    craft and profession skills are sometimes wanting, survival skills
    compensate.

    Druids over see the use of the land, by far the largest economic activity in
    Rjurik. They make sure that resources are not exploited beyond their
    natural replacement rate. Since labor is relativly ineffecient, unskilled,
    and under-equipt, and the population is lower than in Anuire, a greater
    proportion of food comes from animal husbandry. Animals require more space,
    but less labor. Instead of a steward (the Anuirean office), the Rjurik have
    a hlaford - the keeper of the loaves.

    In Brecht lands, as I have mentioned, the land is cold in winter, and hot in
    summers, well watered on the windward sides of slopes, but too dry leeward.
    The land is not very flat, so climate and terrain conspire against the
    Brecht. Agriculture is less of a focus here, and because of Sera`s
    teachings, wealth is sought through trade. So, there is a great emphisis on
    productivity. The best farmers get the best land, the best craftsmen get
    the best tools, the best is matched with the best to maximize yields of any
    resource. It is by this means that the Brecht make a living comperable to
    Anuire or Khinasi despite their meger capital. As you might have noticed,
    there is little concern for equity. Just as the best is matched with the
    best, the worst is left for the worst. This produces a large class of
    landless, semi-employed urban beggers. This class is a rich source of
    rogues. The Brecht call the idle beggers, the "luckless".

    Lady Luck is fickle. This view tends to mitigate against heavy investment
    in long term projects, especially long term projects with low returns. The
    Brecht want the fast thaler, the quick turn around, or at least the prospect
    of a big score. They extract wealth, they don`t invest it. An Anuirean
    lord might build a bridge, not because it will increase wealth, but because
    his people need a bridge there. Further, she will build it in stone,
    because a lady who thinks in terms of stability builds in materials that
    will last. A Brecht owner (land is property in Brectuer, a resource for
    individual use) may not build a bridge even if it would produce wealth, if
    the return on investment isn`t either substantial or quick. After all, he
    may sell the estate to buy a ship and be selling quality woolens in Rjurik
    ports in a few years.

    While infratructure investments are neglected, tools are definitly not. The
    return on investment in quality tools is easily observable, so everyone
    wants the best that their money can buy. As a result, masterwork tools are
    more common in Brecht lands than anywhere else. Brecht craftsmen and
    professionals also strive to have as high a skill as they can manage. Skill
    Mastery is a common feat. Key skills are max`ed out, and specialization of
    labor helps to facilitate focus on just a few skills.

    While in Anuire they have a plentitude of tools (probabaly more tools than
    anywhere), in Brectuer they have the best tools. Skill and masterwork tools
    spell rapid manufacture, high volume, keeping overhead low, and more profit
    for the master craftsmen. Brecht merchants find no difficulty selling such
    high quality wears. The result is that a fairly narrow base of wealth is
    exploited more thoroughly than other societies. Their government is of the
    merchants, by the merchants, and for the merchants.

    Avani, as goddess of reason, favors a rational approach to competing
    economic values. The result is a shifting emphasis based on a rational
    assessement of conditions. As rationalists, the long term is strongly
    valued. The lands of the Khinasi are hot, and poorly watered. More than
    anyone other than the Vos, the Khinasi have the worst land upon which to
    base an economy. Their saving grace, however, is their intelligent use of
    what they have. They can look to sustainability, equity, stability, and
    productivity and make a rational judgement about where to apply themselves.

    Because of the poor climate, agriculture is a poor livelihood. Nomadic
    grazing and caravan trade are more common and more lucrative. As such
    farming is given little esteem, while traveling commerce is greatly
    esteemed. The travelling merchant has opportunities to see new things,
    learn about the world, encounter new ideas, and purchase books, art, and
    strange products. Other than the dedicated scholar or wizard, the caravan
    merchant is ranked as possibly the most respected profession. The Khinasi
    are more willing to make investments than anyone, except the Anuireans.
    However, much of their land will not benifit from improvements. They value
    skills, but their interest is less practical and more knowledge oriented. A
    Brecht craftsmen may know little more than the best techniques to craft an
    item that will command a high market value. The Khinasi craftsmen is also
    quite capable, but also knows the history of his craft, the role of his
    craft in the broader society, and may know about how his craft is performed
    in foriegn lands. So the Khinasi tend to be second, behind the Brecht, in
    terms of their quality goods, but they also see the value in having enough
    tools for everyone, poverty being irrational.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  2. #2
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    On Mon, 2002-05-27 at 20:23, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > I decided to flesh out the different economies of the various nations. I
    > started with an assumption that three things would govern relations in a
    > given nation. The climate, the geography, and the dominant religion. So,
    > for the Brecht, I looked at cold winters and hot summers, a mountainous
    > terrain, and the influence of Sera. And so for each nation. Here is what I
    > came up with.

    >
    > Avani, as goddess of reason, favors a rational approach to competing
    > economic values. The result is a shifting emphasis based on a rational
    > assessement of conditions. As rationalists, the long term is strongly
    > valued.

    > The lands of the Khinasi are hot, and poorly watered. More than
    > anyone other than the Vos, the Khinasi have the worst land upon which to
    > base an economy.
    I don`t think I agree with this at all. The Khinasi are based in mainly
    City-States, the surrounding countryside being relatively unimportant.
    These cities are generally situated on the coast at the best places they
    could find, and they chose places with ample fresh water. This reflects
    their maritime heritage. Ariya though is the site of a Masetian city.
    The plains states are relatively new.

    > Their saving grace, however, is their intelligent use of
    > what they have. They can look to sustainability, equity, stability, and
    > productivity and make a rational judgement about where to apply themselves.

    >
    > Because of the poor climate, agriculture is a poor livelihood. Nomadic
    > grazing and caravan trade are more common and more lucrative. As such
    > farming is given little esteem, while traveling commerce is greatly
    > esteemed. The travelling merchant has opportunities to see new things,
    > learn about the world, encounter new ideas, and purchase books, art, and
    > strange products. Other than the dedicated scholar or wizard, the caravan
    > merchant is ranked as possibly the most respected profession. The Khinasi
    > are more willing to make investments than anyone, except the Anuireans.
    > However, much of their land will not benifit from improvements. They value
    > skills, but their interest is less practical and more knowledge oriented. A
    > Brecht craftsmen may know little more than the best techniques to craft an
    > item that will command a high market value. The Khinasi craftsmen is also
    > quite capable, but also knows the history of his craft, the role of his
    > craft in the broader society, and may know about how his craft is performed
    > in foriegn lands. So the Khinasi tend to be second, behind the Brecht, in
    > terms of their quality goods, but they also see the value in having enough
    > tools for everyone, poverty being irrational.
    Yes, I see the Khinasi having the highest quality of life of all
    Cerilians, with no huge gaps between the haves and the have nots. On
    agriculture though, I`d expect them to intensive farmers rather than
    expansive farmers or nomads (although the traditional Basarji way of
    life was nomadic - they`ve put that behind them except for their love of
    travel). They are now a very urbanized society.

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  3. #3
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    On Mon, 2002-05-27 at 20:23, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > I decided to flesh out the different economies of the various
    nations. I
    > started with an assumption that three things would govern relations in
    a
    > given nation. The climate, the geography, and the dominant religion.
    So=
    ,
    > for the Brecht, I looked at cold winters and hot summers, a
    mountainous
    > terrain, and the influence of Sera. And so for each nation. Here is
    wha=
    t I
    > came up with.
    Very good. I don`t think of each cultural group as a cohesive nation or
    as even being particularly homogeneous, but as a broad generalization
    that`s a good start. I have (as always) a few comments though.

    >=20
    > I`ll mention the Vos first, because they don`t really have an economic
    > theory. They have a social theory with economic implications, but
    they
    > don`t value production itself. Their economic ideas focus on
    distributio=
    n,
    > mostly through raiding. They seem to produce slightly (or even well)
    bel=
    ow
    > a subsistance level, and make up the difference in raiding or
    hunting. W=
    hen
    > they don`t make up the shortfall, the weak are left to starve. Tools
    are
    > mostly poor in quality, very few in number, and this means that the
    > technology for producing weapons and armor is pretty rare in Vos
    lands. =
    Any
    > smith capable of making a master work weapon is probabaly what the
    viking=
    s
    > called a "famous smith". A far larger source of masterwork weapons is
    > probabaly the Brecht. As I will detail later, the Brecht probably
    produc=
    e a
    > lot of masterwork weapons. Land is probabaly poorly maintained,
    little
    > investment is made in infrastructure, and hence, the Vos are probabaly
    > semi-nomadic, villages moving every several years.

    What about the effect of slaves ?

    >=20
    > Anuire is a warm, well watered land, mostly flat with and ideally
    suited =
    for
    > agriculture. Haelyn`s ideology supports a flat social structure in
    which
    > most people are probabaly yeoman farmers. Haelyn`s ideology also
    support=
    s
    > stability. All this considered, Anuire is probabaly dominated by a
    form =
    of
    > the manorial system. Private ownership will be weak, ownership will
    be
    > strongly communal, and tools and animals will be shared by customary
    > regulation. Carl Cram=E9r`s post contrasting our atomistic society
    with =
    a
    > more organic society goes to the heart of Anuire. A strong element of
    > justice will influence economic thinking in Anuire, emphising fair
    access
    > and reciprocity to a great degree. Two smiths of vastly different
    skill
    > might still get the same amount of work from the community because it
    is =
    not
    > just for one man to starve while another man profits. A look around
    Anui=
    re
    > may reveal that most common tools are not masterwork, and that only
    the
    > Rjurik and Vos have fewer masterwork tools. Tools will be loaned and
    > borrowed by custom, and it will be an injustice not to loan a required
    to=
    ol.
    > Equity is the end result. Most individuals probably have very similar
    > standards of living, because those who are able are required to assist
    th=
    ose
    > who are in need. This is both just, but it is embeded in the
    principle o=
    f
    > chivalry. The strong protect the weak. It is a duty.

    I think this is a good snapshot of traditional Anuirean life. I don`t
    think it`s truly a representative view in many Anuirean realms in 550+
    MR. I see Diemed as being the most traditional, with Avanil and Boeruine
    not that far behind. Just about everywhere else there`s a breakdown in
    values or a polarization of ideas, or a more modern and egalitarian
    approach. That`s not to say that this way of life has disappeared but
    that it`s become weaker, influenced by other cultures, etc. The reality
    is likely to be far from the ideal I think.

    > In non-peer relations differences certainly exist. The noble is
    clearly
    > wealthier than the farmer. However, the principle of justice
    remains. T=
    he
    > lord is obligated to protect his tenents (renting freemen) from crime,
    > invasion, and hardship. In addition to providing courts for justice
    and
    > embracing the knighly life style to be ready to repell invaders, the
    > Anuirean lord also regulates economic activity to promote equity and
    also
    > stability.
    (Ah - I see the difference between our discussion on feudalism - you
    have renting freemen, whereas I have free farmers owning the land).
    (It`s a pity the authors didn`t say what they meant by semi-feudal - the
    only thing we can be sure of is that they didn`t mean feudal.)

    Yes, Laws still the mainstay of society. But it`s unlikely to be fair
    except between equals. The temples of Haelyn would have control of the
    justice system in most realms except Brosengae, Medoere, and Aerenwe.
    Diemed, and Taeghas are probably the most corrupt of the Haelyn based
    sytems, while Avanil, Mhoried and Boeruine probably have a King`s
    Justice and well as the Popular Justice of the temples.

    The Empire has been dying for 550 years. Not dead, dying. Apart from the
    few dynastic duchies still going strong, the rest of the Empire probably
    thinks of themselves as Aerenweans rather than Anuireans (e.g.).

    >=20
    > Stability, along with justice, is a core element of Haelyn`s
    ideology. T=
    his
    > will be served by some attention to sustainable practice (though not
    near=
    ly
    > to the extent that the Rjurik do, following Erik`s teaching). It will
    be
    > served by the managed cooperation just discussed. But mostly it will
    be
    > served by constantly putting as much of the surplus back into the
    economy=
    as
    > possible in the form of infrastructure and improvements. The Anuirean
    > emphisis on equity and stability will tend to undermine its
    productivity.
    > In terms of return on investment, Anuire probabaly produces
    substantially
    > less than the Brecht and noticably less than the Khinasi. However,
    the l=
    and
    > is rich, well watered, warm, and flat, so in terms of final income,
    the
    > Anuireans do about the same as everyone else. The emphisis certainly
    is =
    not
    > on making a profit, it is on taking care to see that everyone has what
    th=
    e
    > need, and that it will be this way for a long time. Its just,
    orderly, a=
    nd
    > stable, and it achives this by regulation, law, and custom.
    >=20
    > Towns in Anuire are more administrative centers than elsewhere. Trade
    > comprises a smaller share of the town`s life. Courts, archives,
    chanceri=
    es,
    > and officials play a much larger role in urban life in Anuire than
    they d=
    o
    > in other nations.
    During the old Empire days, the influx of wealth would have seen a great
    increase in the merchant classes, our "free merchants". Particularly in
    the greater urban centers we`d see a major role here for the traders.

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  4. #4
    Senior Member
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    On Mon, 2002-05-27 at 20:23, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > I decided to flesh out the different economies of the various
    nations. I
    > started with an assumption that three things would govern relations in
    a
    > given nation. The climate, the geography, and the dominant religion.
    So=
    ,
    > for the Brecht, I looked at cold winters and hot summers, a
    mountainous
    > terrain, and the influence of Sera. And so for each nation. Here is
    wha=
    t I
    > came up with.
    Very good. I don`t think of each cultural group as a cohesive nation or
    as even being particularly homogeneous, but as a broad generalization
    that`s a good start. I have (as always) a few comments though.


    > In Rjurik lands, the teachings of Erik hold sway, and that means a
    focus on
    > sustainability as the highest goal, and little desire to maximize
    > productivity. Where Anuire puts the needs of the community above
    those o=
    f
    > the individual, Rjurik puts the needs of nature before the
    individual. A=
    s
    > the Rjurik say, this orchard will produce as much and as good for my
    grea=
    t,
    > great grandson son as it does for me. The land is cold much of the
    year,
    > although the land is flat and well watered. The Rjurik suffer from a
    lac=
    k
    > of tools, materials, and skills. Their focus on the preservation of
    the
    > land tends to prevent them from becoming more effecient users of the
    land=
    .
    > Rjurik tool makers are sometimes quite good, but the good ones are too
    fe=
    w,
    > and there is no great plentitude of tool makers over all. While some
    of
    > this might be overcome by an Anuirean focus on cooperation, sharing,
    and
    > mutual assistance, Erik demands that each individual be capable of
    fendin=
    g
    > from himself. As such tools are often absent, or of inferior quality
    > because each household is limited to its own resources. As a result,
    whi=
    le
    > craft and profession skills are sometimes wanting, survival skills
    > compensate.

    Hmmm, I`d almost draw the opposite conclusion from your statement of
    facts. Wouldn`t their crafts be highly important and thus likely to be
    individual but of high quality ? Tools would be very valuable heirlooms
    passed down through the clan. Clan units would have corporate property
    and the focus would be on clan group survival. One clan is likely to be
    excellent smiths, while another is excellent weavers - with some annual
    trade between them.

    >=20
    > Druids over see the use of the land, by far the largest economic
    activity=
    in
    > Rjurik. They make sure that resources are not exploited beyond their
    > natural replacement rate. Since labor is relativly ineffecient,
    unskille=
    d,
    > and under-equipt, and the population is lower than in Anuire, a
    greater
    > proportion of food comes from animal husbandry. Animals require more
    spa=
    ce,
    > but less labor. Instead of a steward (the Anuirean office), the
    Rjurik h=
    ave
    > a hlaford - the keeper of the loaves.

    The traditional Rjurik lifestyle has been influenced by hundreds of
    years of Anuirean control. Still, the traditional lifestyle was not
    agrarian but nomadic. I think they`re more likely to be semi-nomadic and
    the economic base be sheep or cattle or goats. (so I think "keeper of
    the loaves" would be more likely "shepherd of the flocks" or some such)

    >=20
    > In Brecht lands, as I have mentioned, the land is cold in winter, and
    hot=
    in
    > summers, well watered on the windward sides of slopes, but too dry
    leewar=
    d.
    > The land is not very flat, so climate and terrain conspire against the
    > Brecht. Agriculture is less of a focus here, and because of Sera`s
    > teachings, wealth is sought through trade. So, there is a great
    emphisis=
    on
    > productivity. The best farmers get the best land, the best craftsmen
    get
    > the best tools, the best is matched with the best to maximize yields
    of a=
    ny
    > resource. It is by this means that the Brecht make a living
    comperable t=
    o
    > Anuire or Khinasi despite their meger capital. As you might have
    noticed=
    ,
    > there is little concern for equity. Just as the best is matched with
    the
    > best, the worst is left for the worst. This produces a large class of
    > landless, semi-employed urban beggers. This class is a rich source of
    > rogues. The Brecht call the idle beggers, the "luckless".


    Good. What about mining and metalwork ? Couldn`t these be the source of
    the Brecht wealth ? (The hills of Muden are the most easily worked etc)



    >=20
    > While infratructure investments are neglected, tools are definitly
    not. =
    The
    > return on investment in quality tools is easily observable, so
    everyone
    > wants the best that their money can buy. As a result, masterwork
    tools a=
    re
    > more common in Brecht lands than anywhere else. Brecht craftsmen and
    > professionals also strive to have as high a skill as they can manage.
    Sk=
    ill
    > Mastery is a common feat. Key skills are max`ed out, and
    specialization =
    of
    > labor helps to facilitate focus on just a few skills.
    >=20
    > While in Anuire they have a plentitude of tools (probabaly more tools
    than
    > anywhere), in Brectuer they have the best tools. Skill and masterwork
    tools
    > spell rapid manufacture, high volume, keeping overhead low, and more
    profit
    > for the master craftsmen.=20

    Tools (and armor and weapons) would be a natural second industry for a
    culture with a mining basis too.

    > Brecht merchants find no difficulty selling such
    > high quality wears. The result is that a fairly narrow base of wealth
    is
    > exploited more thoroughly than other societies. Their government is
    of t=
    he
    > merchants, by the merchants, and for the merchants.

    Fairly narrow control of the wealth base or narrow base of wealth ?

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  5. #5
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Ryan Caveney wrote:

    > Actually, it would be interesting to have this be an ongoing
    > theological debate.

    Last spring, I posted at some length on the economic theory of each of the five human cultures on the basis of their religious teachings. Rather than just replying the the Imperial Law thread, I went back to the BR boards, so that the link to earlier post can be pursued by those who are interested.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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