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  1. #11
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I've toyed with removing all xp for combat and granting it for acts of fame instead - effectively winning the adultation of the masses with acts of heroism, skill, etc still grant you xp but you need to do them somewhere that people notice and have them enefit from the deed to really gain and simply wandering around killing everything is pointless from an xp perspective.

    So role-playing, successful domain play, saving the town/village are good for xp, a romp through the shadow world probably less so.
    I like the idea of PC progress through means like this. The standard kill exp was just too limited. When I saw the optional exp for other class actions it got me thinking. DMs awarding RP exp too. Then the domain exp from domain actions with Birthright. At first I liked the idea of my character being able to have all these ways to level up and the one cover of the AD&D Battlesystem where the one guy was holding up the army and slaughtering them was just so cool. But that was my limited understanding of the depths and soul the game could have. Coming to this community out of scheer coincidence of picking Birthright as my favorite setting, because of it having more to offer than just an out of context experience of dungeon crawling, brought an understanding of a different style of play. 3E sure played around with a lot of ideas regarding styles of play. I am sure glad this is my rant thread. I never did come up with a coherent set of rules to cover all these ideas for exp, it was always more ad hoc.


    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I see no reason not to let people travel through the Shadow world into a plane and from there perhaps to greyhawk, etc - but as I use a variant magic system (never quite completed!) I'd say that local mebhaighl issues mean that much magic must be relearnt, inherent abilities etc can be lost so that I can prevent cross-campaign stuff causing trouble. Elminster would probably find that his godly spark manifested as a minor bloodline, some of his spells didn't work, etc, but would still be a very able character due to his vast skill and level - but I'm a firm believer in 'what works for an NPC should work for a PC' so wouldn't give any special powers that weren't unusual feats, sheghlien abilities, etc.
    I am definitely a firm believer in the NPC/PC thing. Aspiring to be an overlord and hero is something I like to allow.

    Regarding cross-campaign conversions I don't know if I'd really want to change anything. I am more of the opinion that from one world to the next is like traveling through space. The laws of reality don't change as far as we know it from one world to the next. We take what we need to survive the new environment and everything else comes with us. Powers from deities I'd say reach through and to all the corners of the prime-material plane, but when you go into other planes is where you come into things like this where some deities have less power than others. You could make the argument that each world is a plane since the archaic derivation is planet and each planet is named after a god thereby calling for such rule changes. This may be more popular or accepted for balance, but so far I am of the mind to not concern myself with it. So for example Raistlin comes to Cerilia. Ooh sounds like a chilling new boxed set. He'd still be master of the tower in his home world and all his magic and items still work, but he can now participate in the new world.

    I guess this brings up the true-wizard question. Raistlin has no bloodline but functions as a true-wizard. I wouldn't grant him a bloodline, I'd say it has to come through the normal BR rules even if he is a lord of a domain on his home world. I would allow him access to magic that he knows, but would require the bloodline in order to learn domain magic. I would argue that having a bloodline is an element required for the mind to comprehend such magic like having sight is to experiencing color. I am sure many more problems would arise through cross-world interaction, but like all things the DM could make his rulings through debate and considerations. For me though, the major conversion of characters like you suggest for Elminster just doesn't seem like the thing I'd like to have.

    My assumption is that Bloodlines are separate from the rest of the game and unique. They result from a particular event in space and time and the rules inherent to their function are not transferable. Neither do I like the idea that including bloodlines into the effective class level is a good idea. It is what gives these characters an advantage, but its mostly on the domain level of play where they have it. For example Arthur the once and future king according to some tellings of the legend could be seen as a scion. His fate it meant to unite the people and the land. Other men couldn't do it because Arthur was the only one with the bloodline. That is through an BR interpretation of that legend of course. I also think it is possible to have regents in Aebrynis who are not blooded. However, the lands choice may change that in a short time let alone their ability to compete with blooded lords. I am sure I am bringing about loopholes that I may not see. I don't however, think the blood of the gods from any other world has spilled into the veins of mortals whether mebhaighl connects the worlds or not.
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  2. #12
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    It would be great if you could share the EoFS write-up, but don't bother if it is too much work to find it.

    In case of Bloodlines, I'd say Bloodlines and Blood Abilities would function in and world or any plane. They are characters innate abilities and do not depend on the land, continent, world or plane. Even on Athas, which is cut off from the gods, I'd have the Blood Abilities fully functional because they are not powers granted by gods. A Blood Scion would still gain RP in another world but he/she would be unable to use the powers unless he/she had a Cleric in the party who could perform investiture to give the Scion a province or a holding to use the RP on. If you want to limit Birthirght rules to Aebrynis, you could say that lands of Aebrynis have become susceptible to Investiture and Land's Choice because the land itself absorbed a lot of Divine Blood when the Old Gods died at Deismaar. In that case, it would be simply impossible to invest a province or holding on another world or plane.

    When the regent is away from his domain, I favour the rule that the domain itself can do only 1 domain action per turn. I would further limit the possibility to spend RP to influence the success of the action depending on how much the regent is able to communicate with the domain. A regent on an extended leave but in regular communication with his domain could spend RP at normal cost. A regent on a military campaign in faraway lands would be able to spend RP with half effectiveness. A regent on multiplanar adventure would leave his domain without an ability to spend RP.

    Marlae Roesone with high level and magical items from a world like Toril would be powerful indeed. In my humble opinion, any such occurrence in a Birthright campaign should be result of DM's clear wish to have the PCs drastically alter and disrupt the balance of the world they originate from and wish to return to. If travelling to another world or plane other than Shadow World and returning were possible, it would certainly have happened in the past several centuries. If you let your PCs do that, then you are clearly making a large exception and allowing them to become a unique kind of power in the world.

    Speaking of Wizards, it is a tough question, a difficult decision on how to merge the different spellcasting environments. You could say that Mebhaighl is the same as the Weave, but it has been influenced by the Divine Blood so it now allows only Blood Scions to use it. In that case, Raistlin or Elminster would be quite crippled on Aebrynis unless they managed to perform a Bloodtheft quickly. I don't know much about Raistlin, but you could say that, if Elminster really had an important thing to do on Aebrynis, Mystra would gladly sacrifice a part of herself to make him her Blood Scion. Another option is to say that fickle Sidhe of Cerilia have taught humans the Arcane arts with a flaw, so that only the Blood Scions can use magic to its full potential. An extraplanar visitor like Raistlin or Elminster could then disrupt the balance by teaching humans the true spellcasting, and a planar traveller from Aebrynis would still be limited in spellcasting if he/she isn't a Blood Scion.

    I like the idea of Blood Scion class levels. Blood Scions have additional abilities so they should have an ECL according to 3rd edition rules. Since Savage Species and in 3.5 edition, it has become a kind of trend to replace ECL by racial or monster levels. The effect is quite the same except that a character can start a level 1 campaign as a teenage Minotaur and grow up as he/she gains Minotaur levels. Similarly, a teenage Blood Scion starts his life with only a level of Blood Scion class. The Blood Scion then has to take Blood Scion levels to fulfil his potential defined by his Bloodline strength before being able to take class levels. Monster and Blood Scion levels tend to be slightly less powerful than class levels, probably on par with NPC class levels, so characters with those levels are a bit less powerful than equal level humans. On the other hand, those levels to make existing Birthright characters slightly more powerful if you add them to their levels defined in AD&D 2nd edition materials.

    Speaking of Bloodlines and other settings, does anyone else think the Children of Bhaal were Blood Scions? The idea of reviving Bhaal by harvesting his essence from his children can be used as an idea to revive Azrai in Birthright.

  3. #13
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless One View Post
    Speaking of Bloodlines and other settings, does anyone else think the Children of Bhaal were Blood Scions? The idea of reviving Bhaal by harvesting his essence from his children can be used as an idea to revive Azrai in Birthright.
    According to TSR Azrai isn't dead. Some planescape supplement that discusses dead gods has a list of all the settings deceased deities. The entire old pantheon of Birthright is listed except for Azrai. This leaves me to conclude the Awnsheghlien work with the nature of there can be only one and have at it with each other because of the corruption of the Shadow. That is in the ultimate sense for I am sure they can work together for mutual benefits and maybe even have group hug sessions from time to time. But on the whole if it is Azrai's nature to conquer and absorb other's power, then I'd personally go with this theme for any unification or reviving of his greater essence.

    Would Belenik and Kriesha work against the coalescence of such power since in the end would it not even challenge them? Azrai in my opinion is like that name of character I can't quite remember from the Silmarillion perhpas Morgoth? The aspect of chaos that was stronger than all the others and was also the avenue where growth spurts. It isn't necessary for such an aspect to continually reunite in cycles, but then again what goes up must come down and as a result of this cycle there has been much change in the world. Cycle refering to the events at Diesmaar and the age of the scion.

    In a campaign with a "there can be only one" paradigm with Awnsheghlien a question is raised on a topic much discussed on these forums. When does a blooded character, that is to say in particular Awnshegh ascend to the level of deity? Much debate on this topic regarding the Gorgon. I think this perspective arose based on the rolling chart for creating bloodlines. The scale of rating was from 1 to 100 allowing a person to perceive that 100+ could be godlike. I figured the difference between deity and mortal was so far and between that no one with a bloodline came even close to ascension including Raesene. I saw the scale of 1 to 100 as just being a measure of where characters should start based on rolls and not a measure of where to begin thinking of deification.

    A good reasoning behind this could be that those who are deities are such over the entire world therefore their realm of influence is measured thus. Raesene is a piss-ant in comparison let alone his domain being even a tiny continent in the corner of the world. To get a better idea of what a number would be for potential deification a person could tally up all the domain power of Cerilia and then multiply that by area of Cerilia that the rest of the world is. That is to say find Cerilia's DP and find how many Cerilias fit on their version of Aebrynis and mulitply it by that number effectively Aebrynis DP. Then divide that number up by the number of current deities in the pantheon and you have a rough number for what each current god has for a realm of influence. I wouldn't go into figuring out what ratio of DP each deity has on Cerilia, because they could differ around the world, and that is all depending on what a particular DM has in mind. Also the number of influence thusly calculated does not necessarily equal to the number of ascension. I would think that deity power ebbs and flows and over the centuries since Deismaar expansion, growth, and loss have occurred. So, again it would be a judgement call unless the DM has fleshed out the entirety of all domains on Aebrynis. This Deity domain power number found I would say is much higher than that of Raesene's bloodline.

    The title of Champion of Azrai regarding Raesene could simply mean he is the best warrior of Azrai's legions and perhaps in all Aebrynis. There could be other Awnsheghlien or scions with higher bloodlines most likely in Aduria and again most likely some of the Lost. Each of which have a very very long way to go before considering deification. All this speculation is subject to DM judement calls of course.
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  4. #14
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    The comparison with Melkor/Morgoth does make sense but he and Azrai are not absolutely the same in my opinion. I find Azrai much more similar to Bhaal, the only difference being that Azrai didn't father the children himself but instead somehow managed to preserve a part of his essence that would allow himself to be reborn if all the essence passed on to his Scoins were to be united.

    As for why Belinik, Kriesha or an awnshegh might strive to restore Azrai, they might think that they will gain the powers of Azrai but remain in control of themselves. There is a similar story with Iyachtu Xvim in Forgotten Realms, a son of Bane who achieved godhood after his father's destruction and, when he attained certain level of power, was consumed in rebirth of Bane. Whether the Azrai reborn would be good old Azrai, the new deity with powers of Azrai, or something in between is up to the DM who runs the campaign where such a rebirth takes place.

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