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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    The assumptions we have are Diemed is a Duchy during and up until the end of the empire. Sometime after it lost that title and was refered to as Baron. Considering the Ruins of empire's explanation of Ghoere being a Baron we can assume that there are more than one title in a given realm. If this is so then a house can hold more than one title. The Dukes or Archdukes of Diem may have also been the Barons of Diem. Specifically refering to the historical aspect of title not related to family, which is what the ruins of empire is getting at.
    That's exactly what I was aiming at with my original proposal. Ruins of Empire Barony of Diemed was the core of the Imperial Duchy of Diemed. The canon sources indicate that other parts of Diemed were ruled by vassals at some time: Medoere by a count and Eastern Diemed by a baron. Medieval and pre-modern monarch had extremely long full titles because, in addition to their royal title, all the lesser titles originating from their demesne as well as honorary titles (such as Swedish King of Goths) were included. For example, my Queen of Aerenwe in Ruins of Empire II PBeM is also the Countess of Calrie. It is perfectly logical that Dukes of Diemed would declare their demesne to be the Barony of Diemed. If they lost the ducal title either through a terms of peace or as punishment for some other failing, they would be left with the baronial title.

    From that point of view, they were not demoted. they didn't turn their ducal title into baronial. They were simply forced to surrender their ducal title and the baronial title was the highest they had left.

  2. #22
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    Why Boeruine should want a so weak Diemed? Avanil border with Diemed. The other duchy, Taeghas is a vassal of Avanil.

  3. #23
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vota dc View Post
    Why Boeruine should want a so weak Diemed? Avanil border with Diemed. The other duchy, Taeghas is a vassal of Avanil.
    I see the value of your question. It also makes sense to have a strong thorn in the side of Avanil. However, when it comes to the Iron Throne claimants I'd think that they all would like to reduce one another. Either way would fit for Boeruine I think. A live and let die attitude towards Diemed and any other house that claims ties to the imperial throne. One less rival to deal with later.

    I was watching the history channel while cooking my meal and it was on the American Civil War. I came to the conclusion that Avanil is like the industrial North and Boeruine is like the more backward South. My interpretations of the realms just seem to fit those historical factions. Ultimately the Archduke is the tragic loser and at the cost of Anuire as a whole losing something it would never again have. I am refering to the old romantic ways of the gentile south, which fits Boeruine in their sense of honor and dignity. My interpretation is Boeruine is old fashioned and Avan is more in with the new out with the old given his taking up the fighting style of the Brechts and the Archduke in an old knightly suit of full plate armor.

    Anyway, just something I wanted to share.
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  4. #24
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    At 08:02 AM 6/2/2011, vota dc wrote:

    >Why Boeruine should want a so weak Diemed? Avanil border with
    >Diemed. The other duchy, Taeghas is a vassal of Avanil.

    That`s a good point. I think in addition to Magian`s comments, I`d
    say that Boeruine would want a weak Diemed LESS than Avan, but he`d
    still prefer Diemed weak. Having a stronger Diemed on the border of
    Avanil isn`t as bad for Boeruine as it would be for Avanil, but at
    this point both the Archduke and the Prince have their eyes on the
    throne rather than on each other. A more powerful Diemed would
    represent another possible claimant, especially since the baron`s
    ancestry is strong. His has this problem with his heritage,
    though. The whole problem with baron/duke. The Archduke has
    apparently gained that title through influence alone. Nobody else is
    so ennobled. If Harl Diem were to retake his ancestral lands after
    they`ve been their own independent lands for so long--much the same
    way the Archduke dominates his neighbors--who is to say he wouldn`t
    just claim an "overlord" type title like Boeruine`s?

    A stronger Diemed would, in the short run, probably be better for
    Boeruine. He`d prefer a state powerful enough to challenge Avan, but
    not powerful enough to be a threat to himself. It depends on how you
    see the Archduke`s policies. Is he subtle enough for that kind of
    careful manipulation, or would he prefer Diemed out of the picture?

    Gary

  5. #25
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    The ruler of the Duchy of Diemed is a...Duke!

    Seriously; look at the the RoE booklet - it is trying to give each regent his very own title. I think the authors weren't really thinking too much about this issue when the made the Duke of Diemed a Baron.

    He could be the Baron of Aerele too of course, but whichever way you look at it Diemed is a Duchy and the Diems are Dukes.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Knight View Post
    The ruler of the Duchy of Diemed is a...Duke!

    Seriously; look at the the RoE booklet - it is trying to give each regent his very own title. I think the authors weren't really thinking too much about this issue when the made the Duke of Diemed a Baron.

    He could be the Baron of Aerele too of course, but whichever way you look at it Diemed is a Duchy and the Diems are Dukes.
    I can't agree about the uniqueness of titles in RoE. There are barons all over (Diemed, Roesone, Dhoesone, Ghoere, etc) and the booklet itself tells us about the hierarchy of Anuirean titles: Duke -> Baron -> Count (inverese order of Baron and Count when compared to English titles)

    Ruler of the Duchy of Diemed is a Duke, of course, unless there is no Duchy of Diemed. My theory is that Dukes of Diemed were, with their full titles listed, Duke of Diemed, Baron of Diemed, Count of Aerele. If they had lost a major war they could have been forced to give up their ducal title, especially if they had previously lost Roesone and Medoere to rebellions.

  7. #27
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless One View Post
    I can't agree about the uniqueness of titles in RoE. There are barons all over (Diemed, Roesone, Dhoesone, Ghoere, etc) and the booklet itself tells us about the hierarchy of Anuirean titles: Duke -> Baron -> Count (inverese order of Baron and Count when compared to English titles)

    Ruler of the Duchy of Diemed is a Duke, of course, unless there is no Duchy of Diemed. My theory is that Dukes of Diemed were, with their full titles listed, Duke of Diemed, Baron of Diemed, Count of Aerele. If they had lost a major war they could have been forced to give up their ducal title, especially if they had previously lost Roesone and Medoere to rebellions.
    Except Dhoesone is a border realm which was never a Duchy. And Ghoere is one of the few 'modern' realm in that it has no direct link to any of the old duchies. And Roesone something similar.

    But Diemed was and is a duchy. It is even still ruled by the House of Diem. So the ruler is still a duke.

    Only think I can think of is that the ruled chooses to not use his title - or is forced to refrain from using it.

    I don't really buy that though, so I'm sticking with Duke.

    Btw: Why is BR-L double-posting right back at us?
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  8. #28
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    The mailing list has been doing that for some time, I'm afraid.

    Ius Hibernicum, in nomine juris. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

  9. #29
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    While of the view that more thought into titles may have occurred in this and similar threads than in creating the original canon, I wonder if a potential reason for the 'low' stated status of Baron is a break in the family succession - the senior family died off and a cadet branch won/was granted the realm - but was not granted the full title by the emperor.

  10. #30
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    I'd agree with Andrew and extend with some of my thoughts.

    And a question. Is it a fact that house Diem ruled Diemed continuously from its founding? If not, could there be a point in history when the breaking of 'Greater' Diemed might have been caused by a weak ruler who was overthrown because of his poorly lead politics? And so the new ruler picked up the pieces but the strength and number of provinces of this deflated realm were not enough to be acknowledged as more than a baron? So after a number of years of his rule, this usurper (yes, he was dumb enough to forget a bloodtheft could be useful at that point) was taken down by a member od Diem family but could also inherit no more than a baron title.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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