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  1. #41
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    On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 15:03, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > Gary Wrote:
    > > Actually, you can still have free farmers in a feudal society. In fact,
    > > "feudal" in the modern sense is often used to refer to a hierarchical
    > > system of military obligation rather than a social system as a
    > > whole
    >
    > Peter wrote:
    > > That is one of the definitions of feudal certainly. It`s the definition
    > > that applies to the beginnings of feudalism in late Roman times.
    >
    > 1) There is no Romano-feudalism.
    I`m responding to Garys comment in which he uses the definition of
    feudalism as above: (under which context there was feudalism as so
    defined during the breakdown of the Roman empire-- see Carls response
    for details)

    Feudalism: a system of reciprocal personal relations among members of
    the military elite, which lead ultimately to parliament and then Western
    democracy.

    However, there`s argument against that as well.

    Building on work of Elizabeth Brown, the historian Susan Reynolds, in
    her Fiefs and Vassals, systematically attacked the basis of the
    professional medievalists` version of feudalism [although she did not
    tackle the older social and economic, or Marxist, model]. Reynolds
    argued that recent historians had been too ready to read back 11th- and
    12th-century legal texts (which do use feudal) terminology onto a much
    more variated 9th- and 10th century society and had ended up creating a
    "feudal world" which simply did note exist, or which, at most, described
    small parts of France for short periods.

    Most reviewers have found Reynold`s arguments compelling. [See, for
    instance, the very informative comments of Steven Lane: Review of Susan
    Reynolds, Fief and Vassals, [At TMR]. As a result teachers can no longer
    teach "feudalism" without severe qualifications.


    > 2) The late Roman economy remained slave driven.
    But back to the main point. Carl responds as to the facts well enough.
    (I was going to put in some historical stuff about the laws passed etc
    but it`s boring crap)
    The Romans had several problems. One was tax evasion - yes tax evasion -
    people were trying to avoid paying taxes - can you believe that ?
    Another was the cost of running all those armies - what`s an Emperor to
    do ? And another was the growing lack of slaves (these slaves were quite
    different from later American slavery model).



    > 3) Feudalism is a formalization of Germanic law
    > 4) Charlemagne established the system which was feudalism in its earliest
    > forms.
    Whereas you are referring to another definition:

    Before we begin, we should note that the men and women of the middle
    ages never talked about feudalism. Feudalism is a term invented in the
    sixteenth century by royal lawyers - primarily in England - to describe
    the decentralized and complex social, political, and economic society
    out of which the modern state was emerging. The term "feudalism" came
    from the German vieh, or "cow," the measure of wealth among the early
    Germans, a term that gave rise to the medieval word fief. "Fief" simply
    meant "something of value." In the agricultural world of the time,
    "something of value" was usually land. But the sixteenth-century lawyers
    pictured this land as having been under the control of a powerful king
    who distributed much of it to his followers, men of distinction whose
    breeding and upbringing particularly fitted them for governing and
    giving battle.

    It has been argued that historians have interpreted medieval documents
    and histories in terms of this view, and that, when we examine the
    documents more closely, there is actually very little evidence that
    society was really organized in such a fashion. This may very well be
    true, but a new and different picture of medieval society in the ninth
    through the fourteenth centuries has yet to be developed. Lacking
    anything possible better, it is only reasonable that we should turn our
    attention to the traditional portrayal of feudal society.


    Feudalism: a social system based on a society in which peasant
    agriculture is the fundamental productive activity; in which slavery is
    non-existent or marginal but peasants are tied to the land in some way;
    and in which a small elite defined by military activity dominates.
    (Marxist model)

    This generally defined as "Manoralism" these days.

    >
    > Explain what you mean by free.
    Free to leave the ground that they work firstly. Free to gain income by
    laboring where they choose. Free to sell the land that they work. Not
    owned or bound to servitude for life.

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  2. #42
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    On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 21:15, John Machin wrote:
    > Peter sez:

    >
    > I`m actually highly sceptical about the sophistication of the Iranian
    > system, although I do understand that reform has occurred. I am unware
    > of specifics though, as Israel is currently occupying most of my
    > attention.
    It is sophisticated compared to what went before it. (Trust me: they
    were only a few steps from a cavalry warlord grabbing control.) It`s
    more sophisticated in that it is a decentralization of power, allowing
    more points of view to be present in the process of government.

    >
    > I`m also not convinced that the process of political evolution that you
    > describe is accurate. Elegant perhaps, and appealing, but not
    > neccessarily accurate.
    Hey, no one is actually certain that modern thinking on politics is
    correct.(who`s certain about anything really?) But it`s the most
    accepted model that we as a world society have come up with so far.

    Still, I`m drawing on the same material available to the BR creators and
    using the latest anthropological and historical explanations to draw
    parallels between the BR world and societies that it was modeled on in
    the RW. (post or late-empire tyrants and the rise of more sophisticated
    forms of government)

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  3. #43
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    On Mon, 2002-05-27 at 02:56, Michael Romes wrote:
    > >
    > Lubke sounds german, but when you place Rome outside Europe - you´re not
    > from the US, are you? ;-)

    No, I`m Australian. :-)
    The Roman empire was big - but it was really Mediterranean in form with
    the capital at Constantinople. Also time scale, later European feudalism
    was til the ninth century (by some theories) and the 13th century by
    others.

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  4. #44
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    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-05-27 03.34:

    > Free to leave the ground that they work firstly. Free to gain income by
    > laboring where they choose. Free to sell the land that they work. Not
    > owned or bound to servitude for life.

    Thank you, this is a good definition of economic freedom. However, I don`t
    think it has much to dowith the dreams of most medieval farmers. If this is
    your definitin of freedom, no feudal farmer was free, but neither was any
    feadal nobleman.

    Our society is rampantly individualistic. Each of us wants to persue
    individual goals. We view land as a resource that we own and do with as we
    please. For us, your definitions of freedom make a lot of sense. This is
    very far from the medieval mindset, however.

    [specific examples here are all from Sweden] There were laws strictly
    regulating the sale of inherited land. You could not sell it outside the
    clan, and you could not will it away as you wanted, either. The family or
    clan took precedence over the individual. If a nobleman wanted to dodge his
    responsibilities as a landowner, he would let someone else in the clan
    administer the land, and they gave you a stipend to live on but nowhere nere
    the tfull value of the land. Far easier, of course, was to have a steward
    (who could be a kinsman) administer the holding for you. There were even
    laws prohibiting the willing of land to the church - noble clans though this
    too great a risk of reducing their holdings.

    A farmer could leave his land, perhaps even sell it, but then he would have
    to find a buyer willing to tend to it and fulfill the obligations tied to
    it.

    In practice, the only people who could move about without drastically
    reducing their social status were younger brothers - who did not have much
    to lose anyway.

    Everyone was either an outcast, or a member of some tight-knit organization
    with demands that retricted your freedom. Without kin or lord, you were
    nothing. Marriagesfor landholders were not individual decisions; they were
    alliances between families. Inheritance was not a personal decision; it was
    the clan redistributing it`s wealth. Individuals did not owe military
    service; communities did. Artists did not sign their great works. Not even
    kings had had portraits made.

    No-one in medieval society enjoyed the freedoms you mention. Not peasants,
    not nobles, not clergy, not guildsmen. All were bound by a complex social
    contract with duties and benefits. Just as roman society restricted the
    peasant family`s willingness to invest in their land, this restricted the
    individuals willingness and opportunity to invest in various business
    ventures, contributing to the revolt of individualism of later centuries.

    What I want to show is that the modern concept of an individual representing
    only himself is entirely out of place in medieval times.

    This pattern of life continues in many parts of the world, and is part f the
    reason why immigrants to Europe have such problems integrating in an
    individualistic society.

    Of course, this was all part of the self-image of the times. It was not an
    absolutley correct self-image, just as our self-image is probaly not
    correct. In many cases, the scene was much more dynamic. But it was a
    self-fulfilling self-image; most people behaved as they were expected to
    behave.

    The freedoms a medieval farmer would want were probably more in the line
    with a freedom from molestation, the right to refuse noble passengers unpaid
    room and board, the right to administer his household as he saw fit (thus
    limiting the freedoms of his own subjects), the right to grind his grain and
    sell his produce anywhere he wanted, not having to put in free labor on
    defense works or other projects of the state/nobility, extemption from
    military duty and so on. In our parlance, these are not really freedoms, but
    economic rights.

    /Carl

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  5. #45
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    On Mon, 2002-05-27 at 18:02, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:
    > Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-05-27 03.34:
    >
    > > Free to leave the ground that they work firstly. Free to gain income by
    > > laboring where they choose. Free to sell the land that they work. Not
    > > owned or bound to servitude for life.
    >
    > Thank you, this is a good definition of economic freedom. However, I don`t
    > think it has much to dowith the dreams of most medieval farmers. If this is
    > your definitin of freedom, no feudal farmer was free, but neither was any
    > feadal nobleman.

    Yeah I was being cheeky there.

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  6. #46
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    Peter sez:
    > Yeah I was being cheeky there.

    Hey!
    Aren`t you legally obliged to put some smilies at the end of those lines
    that you deem cheeky?
    It`s like those [sarcasm] headings that we used a long while back...

    :)

    (See! Cheeky!)

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  7. #47
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Peter sez:
    > It is sophisticated compared to what went before it. (Trust
    > me: they were only a few steps from a cavalry warlord
    > grabbing control.) It`s more sophisticated in that it is a
    > decentralization of power, allowing more points of view to be
    > present in the process of government.

    Where I was taught we called that "contraction of the state". I don`t
    think the decentralization in Iran was at all what Hayek had in mind
    when he was talking about how useful decentralization was.

    > Still, I`m drawing on the same material available to the BR
    > creators and using the latest anthropological and historical
    > explanations to draw parallels between the BR world and
    > societies that it was modeled on in the RW. (post or
    > late-empire tyrants and the rise of more sophisticated forms
    > of government)

    Yeah, but what if the writers just though "That`d be cool" and put it
    in. Are we justufied in so closely analysing their "motivation" in
    including one concept and (apparently) not another?

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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  8. #48
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    << Ideally communism benefits everyone equally with all property communal,
    but in practice there were flaws.
    Ideally democracy would be great too, but no country has been able to
    create a democratic state. It`s flawed as implemented anywhere today.
    Ideally feudalism wouldn`t have enslaved the farmers (it wasn`t deigned
    to do that), but it`s a natural consequence that occurred everywhere.
    >>

    Slightly off-topic, but I`d like to quote John Lennon here:

    "Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
    And you think you`re so clever and classless and free
    But you`re still fucking peasants as far as I can see
    A working class hero is something to be
    A working class hero is something to be"
    - from "Working Class Hero", by John Lennon

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  9. #49
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    << This is the one thing that worries me about your model. Two 5s have 4s;
    two 35s have 11s; and a marriage of an Avan to a Boeruine (70 and 60)
    produces children whose bloodline is only 15!
    >>

    Well, the thing is, under this system, Avan and Boeruine donot have BL 70
    and 60 respectively. Blood levels range from 1 to 20, just like character
    levels do. Only very exceptional beings can have a blood level higher than
    that. I imagine the Gorgon is BL 30 or 40 maybe, but no more than that.
    Remember, it takes a ridiculous amount of blood points to get there.


    << So what you`re saying is that marriage of a high noble to a low noble
    produces children who are low nobles, rather than high ones. Some
    inheritance systems have worked this way, and some the other. What
    bothers me is that in your model, two high nobles still have only low
    nobles for children! This might reflect a culture in which deeds are far
    more important than birth, but I don`t think it fits Cerilia very well.
    What I would be inclined to do instead is say that the child`s starting
    blood points are the average of the parents` blood points. This produces
    the same result as the "average the levels" approach of the standard rules
    when the bloodlines are identical (whereas yours is roughly twice the
    square root of the average), and when they are far apart tilts the result
    in favor of the higher bloodline (a system of inheritance that treats
    mixed marriages as closer to the higher class). For 70+0 (Prince Avan and
    the milkmaid?) the standard method gives 35, whereas yours gives 11 and
    mine gives 49; I can see all of these as reasonable answers. For 60+70,
    my suggestion gives the children 65, same as the standard; your method`s
    answer of just 15 strikes me as much too low, especially the way I
    perceive Anuire as working. There also seems to be almost no way that, in
    your model, there could be noble families with bloodlines of 60 or 70
    after over 1,500 years (about 60 generations!) of mating.
    >>

    Here`s a new way of bloodline inheritance I came up with: Child gets the
    same blood level as the parent with the lowest bloodline, plus a number of
    blood points equal to the other parent`s blood level. Of course, later on,
    both parents can still invest both of their blood lines into the child,
    giving it an additional number of blood points equal to the total of both
    their blood levels.
    How about that?


    << I`ve also envisioned (but
    not run) a plot in which a commoner happens to be touching (dressing,
    selling fruit to, being healed by, etc.) a blooded scion who is killed by
    an assassin using a missile weapon, which inadvertently provides the
    commoner with the slain noble`s bloodline through accidental "bloodtheft".
    >>

    Actually, that`s possible in my campaign too. If someone is killed by a
    critical hit, but the killer is not in direct contact with the victim,
    anyone else who is might get the bloodline instead.


    << I`d make tighmaevril much more efficient -- give the slayer a fraction
    (half, perhaps) of the victim`s BP to add to his/her own. This makes them
    much more important when dealing with really powerful bloodlines, as seems
    mythically appropriate to me.
    >>

    Half is a lot. I`m not sure I would do it like this at all, but if I would,
    something like one-fifth seems better.

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