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  1. #11
    It's all good, Magian. I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts.

    I guess I've been wrangling with this issue since the game first came out -- since the natural male preference system of primogeniture that I'm familiar with (i.e. the one the British royal family uses) seems to make succession a foregone conclusion. It's difficult for me to see the Chamberlain keeping people at bay for so long if the Archduke had married the eldest daughter and she was the next in line. So, I look for a historically accurate solution that makes things make sense.

    I had considered the other options that were mentioned here too -- bars to succession and bastards.

    I don't think the bar to succession would work because that generally triggers what they call a "constructive trust" -- the idea that the eldest daughter couldn't inherit, so she held the Iron Throne "in trust" for her offspring (who was still deemed innocent). I think that was actually a property doctrine that sprung from the medieval ages, but I'd have to check on that.

    The bastards allegation sounds plausible. However, I'm guessing that, with magic, that issue would have been sorted out fairly quickly. I think it works as a malicius slander that's constantly leveled at Boeruine -- in spite of what evidence he provides. But, I don't see how it could persist for so long.

    The other downside to either of these possibilities is that it still only puts two people into play for the Iron Throne: Boeruine and whoever married the second eldest daughter. I like to keep everyone as a possible contender and I've gathered that that's what the game's atmosphere was supposed to be like.

    That's why I was delighted to find the information about Sallic succession and titles falling into abeyance when there were multiple female heirs. It seems to make things fit.

    The Prince and Queen angles, I think, are a matter of DM taste. I remember reading something about Princes being relatives of the Emperor that governed tracts of land. And, I thought it was a nice way to incorporate Avanil into the mix and keep their claim alive -- proximity of blood. And, making Aerenwe an honorary title (i.e. Family of the last Empress) removes some of the tendency for people to decide that realm has committed treason and justify an invasion in Turn 1.

    I think there needs to be some ambiguity to justify to vacancy in th Iron Throne. And, the best way to do that is to make it so that the normal rules of succession have broken down and it's not clear which tiebreaker should be used. Individual realms throughout the Empire may have chosen different "tiebreakers" for their own realms. And, in this time period, it's not clear which one should be used.

  2. #12
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Harrison View Post
    It's difficult for me to see the Chamberlain keeping people at bay for so long if the Archduke had married the eldest daughter and she was the next in line. So, I look for a historically accurate solution that makes things make sense.
    We don't actually have much 'intervening history' between the death of Michael Roele and 'modern cerilia' - it is quite possible that some people have been crowned emperor even though their reign would presumably have been short lived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Harrison View Post
    The other downside to either of these possibilities is that it still only puts two people into play for the Iron Throne: Boeruine and whoever married the second eldest daughter. I like to keep everyone as a possible contender and I've gathered that that's what the game's atmosphere was supposed to be like.
    Only if the family lines never merged or kinked - I'd expect that Avan and Boeruine have intermarried frequently since Michael Roele died in order to maintain their family bloodline, seal a peace, etc - equally they will both have married the Mhor's, Diem's, etc, etc - all sorts of links are likely to have been made

    In terms of kinks I like variations on the lost prince/arthur type stuff. For example headstrong Prince Aether Avan charges into the Shadow World to rescue his kidnapped love, the happy couple ride out of the mists two hundred years later - who is now 'true' prince of Avan, Prince Aether or the heir of the current line descended from his younger brother/son/etc?

    What about if a short lived empire resulted in changes in the rulers of the individual realms - even a change within a family could lead to lasting questions on validity, so the new empress might say to house Diem (which opposed her) that the current Duke had to resign in favour of his brother (who supported her) - even if the empress was cast down and deposed a decade later the 'new duke' might retain his rule - and the offspring of each 'duke' then claim 'true succession'.

    Some players might need a big back-story made to explain the 'surprise claim' but I'd say that pretty much any major noble could advance a claim if they really tried hard enough and had the strength to put their claim forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Harrison View Post
    I think there needs to be some ambiguity to justify to vacancy in the Iron Throne. And, the best way to do that is to make it so that the normal rules of succession have broken down and it's not clear which tiebreaker should be used. Individual realms throughout the Empire may have chosen different "tiebreakers" for their own realms. And, in this time period, it's not clear which one should be used.
    I agree, and the sallic succession sounds very interesting twist. Another one that I like is the older rules where the noble families agreed on the next king rather than succession by the chosen child being automatic.

    Bloodline inheritance rules are likely to impact land inheritance laws though - without a significant bloodline rule would be very difficult and risk the realm so I'd see whatever method is used for bloodline inheritance coming to dominate the legal inheritance rules amongst the highest nobility.

  3. #13
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Bloodline inheritance rules are likely to impact land inheritance laws though - without a significant bloodline rule would be very difficult and risk the realm so I'd see whatever method is used for bloodline inheritance coming to dominate the legal inheritance rules amongst the highest nobility.
    This seems to make sense regarding the Iron Throne. Michael Roele didn't have an heir. Whether his line is out there somewhere to be found or gone forever is up for grabs. The regencies of his holdings appear to have gone to other nobles and the chamberlain. That is if he even had a domain of his own. So the question of the Iron Throne seems to be something beyond the domain rules doesn't it?
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  4. #14
    And as interesting as real-world lines of succession worked, keep in mind that, arguably, the BR setting doesn't have the same frame of reference.

    1) It's hard to have a "legitimate" succession claim when the Imperial line had been a largely unbroken progression to begin with and therefore what counts as "legitimate" has never actually been established in a legalistic sense in the setting. So, basically, the argument isn't really about which claim is legal - it's about which one should be made legal by establishing precedent.

    For instance, what happens when Avan decides to throw their lot in with Boeruine so long as Boeruine's eldest daughter is married to the eldest Avan son? Now that they've "let Boeruine win" the succession fight, that has established a precedent. So, when all the Boeruine sons strangely die afterwards (or are perhaps never born to begin with), Avan suddenly stands to inherit the Iron Throne due to the eldest daughter being married to an Avan heir. All because Boeruine got what he wanted.

    2) It's even harder to have a "legitimate" succession discussion when it's entirely possible that, at any point, the bloodline jumped to an unrelated person upon someone's death. I mean, are we arguing that the Duke of Boeruine is actually the direct lineal descendant of the first Duke (he might actually be, I don't know)? Or is he the "bloodline descendant", which, in this setting and under these magical rules, is specifically possible to be completely separate but also equally legitimate?

    -- Lord Crimson

  5. #15
    One option that I've considered using in the past with regard to who can (legitimately) claim the title of Archduke is that the title only follows those of direct descent from the founder of the line.

    In this respect you end up with Avanil, Boeruine, Alamie, Diemed, and Mhoried.

    In Aerenwe, Osoerde, Elinie, Ghieste, Bhalaene, and Taeghas/Brosengae one can claim descent, but not direct. For example, while Liliene Swordwraith might be related to the Aeren line or even the Imperial line, she is not a direct descendant of the Aeren and therefore cannot title herself Archduchess.

    Cariele presents an interesting case in this instance. Entier Gladanil clearly is not directly descended from the original Carel line. The question for the DM here is Eluvie Cariele a direct descendant or does she come from an indirect line.

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