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  1. #1
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    On Sat, 18 May 2002 02:00:14 +0200 brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG writes:
    > Bronto wrote:
    > One of my players threw me for a loop and caught me completely
    > unprepared last session by sending a huge army into the Spiderfells
    > with the express purpose of destroying the spider. I need some help
    > adjudicating the situation. Can anyone tell me where I could find
    > rules concerning the maintenance of an awnsheghlein domain. They
    > obviously don`t follow the rules of a typical regent. It would be
    > nice if this player was a little challenged by the fight. I would
    > also be interested in rules or ideas on how to handle a fight of a
    > single awnsheghlein versus numerous soldiers. Thanks in advance for
    > any help.

    I must first say that I think your player has some big cahoonas
    to try something like this. Secondly, I don`t think he thought things
    through if he`s trying something like this.
    All my information on the Birthright world is of 2nd Ed, so if
    there have been any 3E changes, I am ignorant of those changes and please
    adjust accordingly.
    There are two ways of running this invasion. The first is by
    using the war cards (which is optional, not required) and the second is
    by using your own modification of role-playing the battle out.
    I shall deal with the option of war card use first. This will be
    long.

    The Good:

    The player brings his army into the Spiderfell. The problem is
    that the Spiderfell is one (BIG) province (or is it?) of forest
    territory. Movement cost is two and the attacker cannot charge, making
    cavalry diminished. The player thinks that the Spider probably won`t
    have many troops (since, mechanically, the domain is a zero-level
    province). Use this against him.
    With the Spiderfell being a 0-level province, the BR books states
    it is usually less than 1,000 people. That may sound harsh, but let`s
    remember it said "people," not "monsters" or "creatures." "Blood
    Enemies" lists stats for the Spider`s Gnoll Raiders, Goblin
    Spider-Riders, Giant Spiders of Spiderfell along with stating that the
    Spider`s followers include "hundreds of gnolls and goblins, and thousands
    of normal and giant spiders!-who will all aid their ruler." (p.98). This
    gives you as the DM the authority to create an instant Legion-sized army
    that may not normally seem present. I could not find it in print, but my
    understanding is that war cards for spiders dictate that spiders do not
    suffer terrain modifiers (thus, no cost of 2 for moving through forests,
    or rivers, etc.).
    Other options the player may not be aware of that you are allowed
    to justifiably create are war cards for various types of spider (phase,
    sword, poisonous, etc.). These could be spiders that are very spread out
    in the forest, but when commanded by the Spider to assemble, they create
    war card units. Also, being a forest, the Spider may have found ways to
    use giant ants as attackers. If you are vicious and have access to
    Ravenloft`s "Red Widow" monster, you could create a war card of these
    deadly women. Though normally solitary and not ones to enter into
    conventional combat, they would be subject to the Spider. Additionally,
    ettercaps make great creatures for the Spider to have around. Two to
    four war cards of these will hopefully decimate some of the PC`s troops.
    The player must spend GB to move troops into the Spiderfell and
    to maintain the troops; the Spider doesn`t have this problem as ALL of
    his troops will be present, even if they aren`t all visible. The
    rulebook does mention that "a powerful kingdom can maintain a standing
    army of 3,000 to 6,000 troops, or 15 to 30 companies. Militant regimes
    may increase that figure by as much as 200%, but an army that large
    couldn`t be supported for long." (p. 60). Depending on your view of the
    Spider and Spiderfell, 30 to 60 war cards of troops may not be all that
    unreasonable, especially if over half consist of spiders, which don`t
    have to be paid. After the "invasion" is over, the "armies" break up to
    go about normal business.
    A nice tactic for when the war begins is to have each of the
    Spider`s units to withdraw after they take one or two hits, replaced by a
    very fresh unit, perhaps of the same type, or one more vicious. Another
    tactic is to say that the invaders are being constantly bombarded by
    miniscule-sized poisonous spiders, which cause the attacker`s troops to
    lose a hit after every round of failed saves, or possibly be paralyzed if
    the save is failed (requiring one of the player`s war cards to be used to
    remove the paralyzed troops from battle or else the attacking spiders get
    free attacks which will kill off the card in a few turns). This
    attrition might make him rethink his invasion. If you opt for the Spider
    to engage any of your player`s front-line troops, I would say his
    presence would be cause for either a fear or morale check. The Spider
    could also weave his special web over an enemy unit neutralizing them for
    the rest of combat. Also, the Spider would be surrounded by his four
    lieutenants at the least.

    The Bad:

    Your player has invaded the Spiderfell and thinks all will remain
    well at home. Is he/she crazy? How many troops are left defending this
    regent`s domain? The more there are, the more GB it will cost. The less
    there are, well, when the cat`s away the mice will play. The invasion
    into the Spiderfell would be a great time to utilize a "random" event.
    The brigands/monster event would make much sense, being either would note
    less patrols and feel emboldened to conduct more raids. Of course, this
    would anger the populace, not just toward the raiders, but towards their
    regent for not protecting them because his troops are on some fool`s
    errand. This could also be a good time to run "The Horns of Droene" from
    "Legend of the Hero-Kings."
    So, Regent X has invaded the Spiderfell, which means the regent
    is over either Endier, Diemed, Medoere or Roesone (and hopefully not
    Ghoere). The regents next door might not appreciate this doomed-to-fail
    incursion. After all, it might provoke the Spider to invade all of it`s
    surrounding territories. What is their response? Agitate. Perhaps
    neighboring Regent Y is secretly behind the hiring of bandits that are
    scouring the undefended lands, and both Regent Y & Regent Z are
    agitating. With Regent X declaring war against the Spiderfell, regents
    over holdings in Regent X`s lands decide now would be a good time to do
    contest actions.
    If this player is over Roesone, maybe Ghoere or Osoerde agitate;
    if Endier, then Ghoere and Diemed agitate, at least; if the regent is
    Diemed, then Avanil, Endier and Medoere could interfere; and if Medoere,
    then Diemed could agitate.

    The Ugly:

    So how many troops are left? Why just agitate when you can
    invade? Any of the above who are regents of neighboring domains could
    just as easily invade as well as agitate. Why not both? A mean example
    could be if your regent is over Roesone. Osoerde might invade Bellam,
    which makes Ghoere invade Fairfield and maybe even Ghoried (after all,
    with a name like Ghoried, it *belongs* to Ghoere anyway, right?). If
    Endier is where the regent is from, Ghoere and Diemed might send
    respectable armies in, both which Endier would have to fend off
    separately and hope neither intruder won.
    Does Cain still control the level 7 source in your campaign? If
    so, maybe he knows what happened the last time someone invaded and he
    puts a warding spell over Spiderfell *after* the player moves in. His
    reasoning is that he doesn`t want the Spider to exact vengeance on any of
    the surrounding domains that didn`t invade. Unfortunately, the player
    regent will have to survive "the short time" while the warding is in
    effect. Oh yeah, does that mean no reinforcements for the player? You
    bet it does.
    Who is the elf assassin Denin the Mutable? ("Blood Enemies," p.
    99). Sure rumors from Ghoere say he`s out to assassinate the Spider, but
    that`s just RUMOR. Perhaps the tale is one weaved by the Spider himself
    to encourage regents to invade. They say Denin is a master magician.
    Maybe he is and maybe he is the one that actually controls the source in
    Spiderfell. If you choose this option, you have opened a whole new can
    of whoop mule onto your player, and deservedly so. Realm spells cast
    before the invading army arrives include Legion of Dead as well as
    Summoning; with however long Denin has been a lieutenant of the Spider,
    there may be numerous Legions of Dead lying about the Spiderfell,
    appearing as previously unsuccessful invaders. Mass Destruction would be
    an awesome spell cast during combat and right after Warding was cast.
    After the battle is over, Death Plague. The Spiderfell is already
    considered 0-level, so there wouldn`t be any game mechanic effect to it;
    however, the neighboring invading realm could be affected as well.
    Vindictive and efficient.
    Additionally, the Spider doesn`t commit to conventional warfare.
    Remember those Roman legions that kept invading the Germanic forests and
    disappeared? This could also happen to the invading regent`s troops.
    The Spider`s card states, "Regents who have sought to tame the Spiderfell
    with massive armies have always emerged from the forest with fewer than
    half their men and a promise never to enter that wood again." Make good
    on this. Give either hefty penalties to the attacker or amazing bonuses
    to the defenders for their unconventional tactics. Just because the
    regent wants to line up troops side by side, doesn`t mean the forest has
    room for it.
    Finally, if the regent joins this fray, then the Spider might
    join the fray. Being able to leap far distances, the Spider can avoid
    battle units and go straight for the one containing the regent. Being
    alive for 1,500+ years, I would think the Spider possesses a tighmaevril
    weapon, perhaps one that someone tried killing him with before. If the
    regent doesn`t flee a.s.a.p., the regent might not be seen again.

    Now, what if you decide to do this as a role-playing experience instead
    of a war card experience? This would actually be my preference.

    Nearly all of the above war card ideas can still be implemented;
    however, you can now add a personal touch to them. When the troops are
    camping by night (after no encounters by day), the spiders and ettercaps
    attack. Or maybe just hundreds or thousands of tiny, poisonous spiders
    attack, such as the brown recluse? What about goblins and gnolls
    attacking in the day time in guerilla tactics? The forest is filled with
    traps and pitfalls. Perhaps the pitfalls are homes to nests of regular
    sized spiders that swarm over the fallen victims, killing them slowly for
    all the human invaders to hear screaming. That should call for a morale
    check. Let this happen over and over. If someone is cut (read: wounded
    for at least one hp), perhaps a disease strikes. When the invading army
    is too weak to function properly, that`s when the real assault begins,
    only, it ends after one minute, with the spiders and ettercaps goblins
    and gnolls and whatever else darting back into the woods in 360 degree
    directions. If the regent says "follow them," then the army splits up
    into 360 degrees of chaos. If the regent doesn`t pursue, the attacks
    keep happening randomly. Perhaps several traps in the forests have
    designs that would purposely damage ant mounds that belong to giant ants.
    A score of giant ants emerging every few seconds might get portions of
    the army running, if not dying. Quite simply, nickel and dime your
    regent`s army to death until he gets the picture.
    After the army flees, then payback is a female dog. Just not
    right away. If you do have the Red Widow stats, use one or two to make a
    personal visit to an attending PC or major NPC officer in the army. If
    it`s a NPC, kill them off gruesomely. If it`s a PC, role-play the
    seduction and then try to kill the player character. Or, perhaps on a
    breezy, cloudy night, half a dozen ettercaps attack the PC`s castle while
    a dozen to a score of giant spiders attack as well. This isn`t meant to
    destroy or demolish, just perhaps kill a few minor NPC guards and give a
    reminder to the regent of who is more powerful (and who can afford to
    expend troops and who can`t). Oh yeah, the general populace may be the
    subject of the attack which would not be good for the regent.

    I hope this helps and I apologize for the length. Also, several
    others have posted good ideas for you for this situation and I think they
    could be combined.

    geeman@SOFTHOME.NET wrote:

    Don`t get me started on critical hit/miss systems. Never been done well
    in D&D. Ever. By anyone. All flawed.

    "Don`t get me started on bad, self-proclaimed assumptions." I
    have found and used a system that I believe is quite excellent in "Arms
    Law & Claw Law." It has several charts, depending on what type of weapon
    attack is used (piercing, slashing, blunt, arrows-specific, etc.) and has
    various outcomes depending on percentile dice rolled. Suggested
    descriptions are also given with various damage. I have found this to be
    very enjoyable by DMs and players alike in both the groups that have used
    this; no one has complained of its overall effectiveness, even when minor
    tweaking was done. Of course, if the players get to roll on it, so does
    the DM in roles of the NPCs. :)

    Take care all,
    Kirby

    "How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol Horde got bored?"
    - Calvin & Hobbes.

    [lurk mode on]

    __________________________________________________ ______________
    GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
    Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
    Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
    http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    [lurk mode off]

    On Sat, 18 May 2002 02:00:14 +0200 brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG writes:
    > Bronto wrote:
    > One of my players threw me for a loop and caught me completely
    > unprepared last session by sending a huge army into the Spiderfells
    > with the express purpose of destroying the spider. I need some help
    > adjudicating the situation. Can anyone tell me where I could find
    > rules concerning the maintenance of an awnsheghlein domain. They
    > obviously don`t follow the rules of a typical regent. It would be
    > nice if this player was a little challenged by the fight. I would
    > also be interested in rules or ideas on how to handle a fight of a
    > single awnsheghlein versus numerous soldiers. Thanks in advance for
    > any help.

    I must first say that I think your player has some big cahoonas
    to try something like this. Secondly, I don`t think he thought things
    through if he`s trying something like this.
    All my information on the Birthright world is of 2nd Ed, so if
    there have been any 3E changes, I am ignorant of those changes and please
    adjust accordingly.
    There are two ways of running this invasion. The first is by
    using the war cards (which is optional, not required) and the second is
    by using your own modification of role-playing the battle out.
    I shall deal with the option of war card use first. This will be
    long.

    The Good:

    The player brings his army into the Spiderfell. The problem is
    that the Spiderfell is one (BIG) province (or is it?) of forest
    territory. Movement cost is two and the attacker cannot charge, making
    cavalry diminished. The player thinks that the Spider probably won`t
    have many troops (since, mechanically, the domain is a zero-level
    province). Use this against him.
    With the Spiderfell being a 0-level province, the BR books states
    it is usually less than 1,000 people. That may sound harsh, but let`s
    remember it said "people," not "monsters" or "creatures." "Blood
    Enemies" lists stats for the Spider`s Gnoll Raiders, Goblin
    Spider-Riders, Giant Spiders of Spiderfell along with stating that the
    Spider`s followers include "hundreds of gnolls and goblins, and thousands
    of normal and giant spiders!-who will all aid their ruler." (p.98). This
    gives you as the DM the authority to create an instant Legion-sized army
    that may not normally seem present. I could not find it in print, but my
    understanding is that war cards for spiders dictate that spiders do not
    suffer terrain modifiers (thus, no cost of 2 for moving through forests,
    or rivers, etc.).
    Other options the player may not be aware of that you are allowed
    to justifiably create are war cards for various types of spider (phase,
    sword, poisonous, etc.). These could be spiders that are very spread out
    in the forest, but when commanded by the Spider to assemble, they create
    war card units. Also, being a forest, the Spider may have found ways to
    use giant ants as attackers. If you are vicious and have access to
    Ravenloft`s "Red Widow" monster, you could create a war card of these
    deadly women. Though normally solitary and not ones to enter into
    conventional combat, they would be subject to the Spider. Additionally,
    ettercaps make great creatures for the Spider to have around. Two to
    four war cards of these will hopefully decimate some of the PC`s troops.
    The player must spend GB to move troops into the Spiderfell and
    to maintain the troops; the Spider doesn`t have this problem as ALL of
    his troops will be present, even if they aren`t all visible. The
    rulebook does mention that "a powerful kingdom can maintain a standing
    army of 3,000 to 6,000 troops, or 15 to 30 companies. Militant regimes
    may increase that figure by as much as 200%, but an army that large
    couldn`t be supported for long." (p. 60). Depending on your view of the
    Spider and Spiderfell, 30 to 60 war cards of troops may not be all that
    unreasonable, especially if over half consist of spiders, which don`t
    have to be paid. After the "invasion" is over, the "armies" break up to
    go about normal business.
    A nice tactic for when the war begins is to have each of the
    Spider`s units to withdraw after they take one or two hits, replaced by a
    very fresh unit, perhaps of the same type, or one more vicious. Another
    tactic is to say that the invaders are being constantly bombarded by
    miniscule-sized poisonous spiders, which cause the attacker`s troops to
    lose a hit after every round of failed saves, or possibly be paralyzed if
    the save is failed (requiring one of the player`s war cards to be used to
    remove the paralyzed troops from battle or else the attacking spiders get
    free attacks which will kill off the card in a few turns). This
    attrition might make him rethink his invasion. If you opt for the Spider
    to engage any of your player`s front-line troops, I would say his
    presence would be cause for either a fear or morale check. The Spider
    could also weave his special web over an enemy unit neutralizing them for
    the rest of combat. Also, the Spider would be surrounded by his four
    lieutenants at the least.

    The Bad:

    Your player has invaded the Spiderfell and thinks all will remain
    well at home. Is he/she crazy? How many troops are left defending this
    regent`s domain? The more there are, the more GB it will cost. The less
    there are, well, when the cat`s away the mice will play. The invasion
    into the Spiderfell would be a great time to utilize a "random" event.
    The brigands/monster event would make much sense, being either would note
    less patrols and feel emboldened to conduct more raids. Of course, this
    would anger the populace, not just toward the raiders, but towards their
    regent for not protecting them because his troops are on some fool`s
    errand. This could also be a good time to run "The Horns of Droene" from
    "Legend of the Hero-Kings."
    So, Regent X has invaded the Spiderfell, which means the regent
    is over either Endier, Diemed, Medoere or Roesone (and hopefully not
    Ghoere). The regents next door might not appreciate this doomed-to-fail
    incursion. After all, it might provoke the Spider to invade all of it`s
    surrounding territories. What is their response? Agitate. Perhaps
    neighboring Regent Y is secretly behind the hiring of bandits that are
    scouring the undefended lands, and both Regent Y & Regent Z are
    agitating. With Regent X declaring war against the Spiderfell, regents
    over holdings in Regent X`s lands decide now would be a good time to do
    contest actions.
    If this player is over Roesone, maybe Ghoere or Osoerde agitate;
    if Endier, then Ghoere and Diemed agitate, at least; if the regent is
    Diemed, then Avanil, Endier and Medoere could interfere; and if Medoere,
    then Diemed could agitate.

    The Ugly:

    So how many troops are left? Why just agitate when you can
    invade? Any of the above who are regents of neighboring domains could
    just as easily invade as well as agitate. Why not both? A mean example
    could be if your regent is over Roesone. Osoerde might invade Bellam,
    which makes Ghoere invade Fairfield and maybe even Ghoried (after all,
    with a name like Ghoried, it *belongs* to Ghoere anyway, right?). If
    Endier is where the regent is from, Ghoere and Diemed might send
    respectable armies in, both which Endier would have to fend off
    separately and hope neither intruder won.
    Does Cain still control the level 7 source in your campaign? If
    so, maybe he knows what happened the last time someone invaded and he
    puts a warding spell over Spiderfell *after* the player moves in. His
    reasoning is that he doesn`t want the Spider to exact vengeance on any of
    the surrounding domains that didn`t invade. Unfortunately, the player
    regent will have to survive "the short time" while the warding is in
    effect. Oh yeah, does that mean no reinforcements for the player? You
    bet it does.
    Who is the elf assassin Denin the Mutable? ("Blood Enemies," p.
    99). Sure rumors from Ghoere say he`s out to assassinate the Spider, but
    that`s just RUMOR. Perhaps the tale is one weaved by the Spider himself
    to encourage regents to invade. They say Denin is a master magician.
    Maybe he is and maybe he is the one that actually controls the source in
    Spiderfell. If you choose this option, you have opened a whole new can
    of whoop mule onto your player, and deservedly so. Realm spells cast
    before the invading army arrives include Legion of Dead as well as
    Summoning; with however long Denin has been a lieutenant of the Spider,
    there may be numerous Legions of Dead lying about the Spiderfell,
    appearing as previously unsuccessful invaders. Mass Destruction would be
    an awesome spell cast during combat and right after Warding was cast.
    After the battle is over, Death Plague. The Spiderfell is already
    considered 0-level, so there wouldn`t be any game mechanic effect to it;
    however, the neighboring invading realm could be affected as well.
    Vindictive and efficient.
    Additionally, the Spider doesn`t commit to conventional warfare.
    Remember those Roman legions that kept invading the Germanic forests and
    disappeared? This could also happen to the invading regent`s troops.
    The Spider`s card states, "Regents who have sought to tame the Spiderfell
    with massive armies have always emerged from the forest with fewer than
    half their men and a promise never to enter that wood again." Make good
    on this. Give either hefty penalties to the attacker or amazing bonuses
    to the defenders for their unconventional tactics. Just because the
    regent wants to line up troops side by side, doesn`t mean the forest has
    room for it.
    Finally, if the regent joins this fray, then the Spider might
    join the fray. Being able to leap far distances, the Spider can avoid
    battle units and go straight for the one containing the regent. Being
    alive for 1,500+ years, I would think the Spider possesses a tighmaevril
    weapon, perhaps one that someone tried killing him with before. If the
    regent doesn`t flee a.s.a.p., the regent might not be seen again.

    Now, what if you decide to do this as a role-playing experience instead
    of a war card experience? This would actually be my preference.

    Nearly all of the above war card ideas can still be implemented;
    however, you can now add a personal touch to them. When the troops are
    camping by night (after no encounters by day), the spiders and ettercaps
    attack. Or maybe just hundreds or thousands of tiny, poisonous spiders
    attack, such as the brown recluse? What about goblins and gnolls
    attacking in the day time in guerilla tactics? The forest is filled with
    traps and pitfalls. Perhaps the pitfalls are homes to nests of regular
    sized spiders that swarm over the fallen victims, killing them slowly for
    all the human invaders to hear screaming. That should call for a morale
    check. Let this happen over and over. If someone is cut (read: wounded
    for at least one hp), perhaps a disease strikes. When the invading army
    is too weak to function properly, that`s when the real assault begins,
    only, it ends after one minute, with the spiders and ettercaps goblins
    and gnolls and whatever else darting back into the woods in 360 degree
    directions. If the regent says "follow them," then the army splits up
    into 360 degrees of chaos. If the regent doesn`t pursue, the attacks
    keep happening randomly. Perhaps several traps in the forests have
    designs that would purposely damage ant mounds that belong to giant ants.
    A score of giant ants emerging every few seconds might get portions of
    the army running, if not dying. Quite simply, nickel and dime your
    regent`s army to death until he gets the picture.
    After the army flees, then payback is a female dog. Just not
    right away. If you do have the Red Widow stats, use one or two to make a
    personal visit to an attending PC or major NPC officer in the army. If
    it`s a NPC, kill them off gruesomely. If it`s a PC, role-play the
    seduction and then try to kill the player character. Or, perhaps on a
    breezy, cloudy night, half a dozen ettercaps attack the PC`s castle while
    a dozen to a score of giant spiders attack as well. This isn`t meant to
    destroy or demolish, just perhaps kill a few minor NPC guards and give a
    reminder to the regent of who is more powerful (and who can afford to
    expend troops and who can`t). Oh yeah, the general populace may be the
    subject of the attack which would not be good for the regent.

    I hope this helps and I apologize for the length. Also, several
    others have posted good ideas for you for this situation and I think they
    could be combined.

    geeman@SOFTHOME.NET wrote:

    Don`t get me started on critical hit/miss systems. Never been done well
    in D&D. Ever. By anyone. All flawed.

    "Don`t get me started on bad, self-proclaimed assumptions." I
    have found and used a system that I believe is quite excellent in "Arms
    Law & Claw Law." It has several charts, depending on what type of weapon
    attack is used (piercing, slashing, blunt, arrows-specific, etc.) and has
    various outcomes depending on percentile dice rolled. Suggested
    descriptions are also given with various damage. I have found this to be
    very enjoyable by DMs and players alike in both the groups that have used
    this; no one has complained of its overall effectiveness, even when minor
    tweaking was done. Of course, if the players get to roll on it, so does
    the DM in roles of the NPCs. :)

    Take care all,
    Kirby

    "How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol Horde got bored?"
    - Calvin & Hobbes.

    [lurk mode on]

    __________________________________________________ ______________
    GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
    Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
    Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
    http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

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