Why doesn't the Gorgon harvest his children?

[DarkElven]

We already know the Gorgon has no compunctions against killing his children. We also know that he has at least two tighmaevril weapons handy. Considering he has plenty of time and perhaps the most potent bloodline in Cerillia, he could easily abduct some common women (let alone noble ones) and create a little horde of his spawn whom he could leisurely slay to feed his own bloodline. Yes, the idea is horrific but if old stonebutt really wanted to be a god, this would be the quickest way to grow his power.

[Birthright-L]

At 09:18 PM 12/20/2010, DarkElven wrote:

>We already know the Gorgon has no compunctions against killing his
>children. We also know that he has at least two tighmaevril weapons
>handy. Considering he has plenty of time and perhaps the most potent
>bloodline in Cerillia, he could easily abduct some common women (let
>alone noble ones) and create a little horde of his spawn whom he
>could leisurely slay to feed his own bloodline. Yes, the idea is
>horrific but if old stonebutt really wanted to be a god, this would
>be the quickest way to grow his power.

I don`t mean to be curt, but this is one of those things that comes
up pretty regularly around here, so I`d encourage you to check out
the archives for a more complete discussion. In brief: many people
(myself included) suggest various ways to avoid this scenario both
game mechanically and from a role-playing standpoint. Game
mechanically, interpretations include things like:

1. Bloodline doesn`t actually take effect until a scion reaches young
adult, meaning it`d take 16-19 years for the Gorgon to see a payoff
from such a program.

2. Some folks have suggested that one can`t perform bloodtheft on one
of your own offspring as that bloodline is too directly related to
the original source.

3. Shameless Plug: One of the problems with the original concept of
bloodtheft is that it allowed ANY act of bloodtheft to affect ANY
scion. In my update to the bloodline system (New Scions--available
in the download section) I revise bloodtheft so that it only affects
those who are within 20 points of bloodline score of one another
through a series of decreasing "opposed rolls" to determine whether
bloodline increases or not. Thus, the Gorgon could perform
bloodtheft on a child who was from a commoner as that child`s
bloodline would be half his own, which is much less than 20
points. He`d have to find someone with a bloodline score of 60+ to
even have a shot at such a thing. Still possible, but unlikely.

From a gaming standpoint, other folks have pointed out that such a
program could well turn on the Gorgon (or any other scion.)

1. Scions are beings of destiny, meaning the fates themselves (read:
the DM) will step in to influence events. Any offspring of the
Gorgon is going to have a godly destiny, and being kept captive and
then sacrificed by the Gorgon fundamentally confuses that nature of
bloodline and, therefore, the major theme of the setting.

2. A program like that described is a pretty good set up for an
adventure. That means anyone who set up such a program would become
the target of adventurers who want to rescue the captives. (The
Gorgon is secretive, but it`s pretty hard to keep something like that
really on the quiet.) Again, from a role-playing standpoint, most
people would see this as an adventure opportunity rather than a
gaming function, and deal with it accordingly.

There are more issues, but that`s the general gist. Have a look
around in the archives if you want to see more. IIRC, the most
recent version of this kind of thing was in regards to blooded
animals. As in, why not have animals that have a bloodline, and
wouldn`t that be a handy source of a sort of "bloodline increase
program" run by some scion. The particulars are different, but the
idea is basically the same.

Gary

[DarkElven]

Thanks for the quick reply and my sincere apologies for bringing up an apparently old issue. I HAVE looked through the archive but missed all those discussions. My search-fu is admittedly weak I admit, but the first time I noticed a harvest program was from a thread back in 2001, after I made this post.

My interest was whether I had missed something and it was accounted for in the exisrting game mechanics.

Anyone wouldn't happen to be aware of any old discussions about divine ascension in the BR setting from bloodline harvesting would they?

[Thelandrin]

Here's a link to the very same topic.

[Monk89]

The main flavor I like there is the Gorgon's children would have the scion destiny themselves. They would never be used as caged batteries. I feel that is a pretty elegant fix to the problem without getting all DM about it.

[Birthright-L]

At 11:03 AM 12/23/2010, Monk89 wrote:

>The main flavor I like there is the Gorgon`s children would have the
>scion destiny themselves. They would never be used as caged
>batteries. I feel that is a pretty elegant fix to the problem
>without getting all DM about it.

I agree. Unfortunately, it is a "role-playing" or a flavour
explanation, and lots of folks are unsatisfied by that kind of
thing. Whenever possible it`s nice to have some sort of game
mechanical support for campaign themes.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

The problem tends to be that any scion-breeding program is so good at boosting bloodlines given the basic rules, that someone would be doing it and it would then have a huge game effect - so the DM is probably going to say 'no' using either a role-play reason or a houserule - both of which then upset players who are trying to munchkin because they've put thought and effort in to setting something up and been denied their payoff.

That said, from recollection, canon does describe the Gorgon as undertaking generational harvests at least in Anuire, and some of the novels (hawk and wolf?) talk about him shifting noble families together to create a child worth harvesting, so some degree of harvesting should be possible.

It depends what you want, if you want to stop that sort of harvesting then coming up with a reason/method is fairly simple, if you don't then you can just bump up the Gorgon/other bloodlines accordingly.

[Nicholas Harrison]

I think the law of diminishing returns may apply here. We're talking about bumping up the Gorgon's bloodline a few points at a time. However, in my mind, he's no longer really concerned about that. He's done that for over 1,500 years. And, even by conservative estimates, he would have harvested more blood that there is a scale for in the setting.

In my mind, he's already a demigod but refuses to go higher on that totem pole because it carries godhood portfolio issues. And, he has other focuses. He doesn't want to bother with shepherding along a religion. He's already got the semblences of a cult in the Hand of Azrai. And, he doesn't want to get shoved off the prime material plane. So, his ambitions are more along the lines of a demilich or something.

Players may like the idea of the jump of a few points in bloodline. Even a drop of godlike blood is immensely powerful. But, to figures of demigod stature, I think it becomes less relevant.

[Magian]

demilich

mmmmm....demilich my favorite!

The other mention of this was with Rhoubhe doing the same thing. My main problem with that is his domain power is so small compared to his blood str already that its not worth it. It would be like going out and getting an entire farm to have more food when you have more than enough food to eat as it is.

With the Gorgon the printed material gives him a blood str of 100+. This leaves it open ended for the DM to determine. That gives you enough room to bump his score up to whatever you want it to be without any more justification than the previous sentence I just typed. But if you want to add the flavor of how he got it so high and you want to use harvesting his children, have at it.

Regarding his perspective, vision, and psychology I'd agree that this seems below him outside of him going after Mhoried's bloodline in particular. That realm has been a shield against his ambition for too long, so destroying the inheritance and weakening that realm is something he'd love second only to obtaining the Iron Throne itself.

The long life ability I like to play as not only slowing aging but as if it meta-morphs the psyche into thinking more long term. Perhaps not at first but after a few decades and then centuries even you take note how there is a difference in thinking and action on the scale of time. So if the Gorgon would do something like this he'd do it with the long term in mind and not rushing anything.

Back to my original issue, is it worth him bumping up his blood score in relation to his domain power? Outside of any ascending rules that seems to be the only motivator. That is unless you up the blood abilities he could have through further increasing the score. Then the question is what does he do with these increased regency he gets per turn? Up his score even more? Pay spies and agents for his intrigues? Increase his domain? If these fall under his long term perspective than it can make sense of him harvesting bloodlines.

First I'd establish bloodline harvesting to be needed in the first place. Though in his mind he wants to attain his goal, is he really that great of a regent to develop his realm? He is a despot and doesn't even allow trade. He is backward and is more action oriented than a planner as his failed campaigns have shown. Then again has he learned and is taking a new path?

[Nicholas Harrison]

Yeah . . . . I've always loved what they did with Return to the Tomb of Horrors. I thought the demilich's diabolical plot was one of the best explanations for him "hiding out" in a dungeon and not conquering the world.