Tighmaevril vs. the blood ability Invulnerability

[Jaleela]

Tighmaevril vs. Invulnerability

Do attempts at bloodtheft with a Tighmaevril weapon superseed the conditions and aspects of the blood ability Invulnerability?


This is sort of a revisiting to an old thread (I would have posted it there but...because it was over 1700 days old, I couldn't reply to it).

Original Thread posted by Rhiannon Faramiriel:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...3895#post33895

[Birthright-L]

At 01:59 PM 12/20/2010, Jaleela wrote:

>Tighmaevril vs. Invulnerability
>
>Do attempts at bloodtheft with a Tighmaevril weapon superseed the
>conditions and aspects of the blood ability Invulnerability?

In the original rules, I`d argue that Invulnerability precludes
bloodtheft by definition. In order for a scion to commit bloodtheft
he must KILL another scion by stabbing him in the heart. One could,
I suppose, be stabbed in the heart and survive--though I imagine it`d
still be pretty unpleasant. It`d just mean the stab wasn`t
particularly deep. I read that to mean that the victim of bloodtheft
must actually die in order for his life force, to which is bloodline
is tied, to pass out of his body for the thief to take a portion of
it for his own. If a scion weren`t killed by being stabbed through
the heart, then I`d argue since his life force doesn`t leave his
body, neither does this bloodline. Since no energy leaves the
would-be victim, there`s no transfer of bloodline.

So, unless the special manner of death required to kill a scion who
has the Invulnerability blood ability involves that scion being
stabbed in the heart, by requiring that special manner of death, the
blood ability makes bloodtheft impossible. I can think of only one
way around this particular issue:

If a scion were to be executed or sacrificed in such a way that
allowed a bloodthief to stab the invulnerable scion in the heart at
the same moment the manner of death required by the Invulnerability
blood ability were met then I think bloodtheft would still be
possible. For example, a scion whose Invulnerability required that
he be killed by beheading with a silver weapon, could theoretically
be stabbed in the heart at the same moment he was
decapitated. Personally, I don`t think I`d allow such a thing to
work. I`d argue that in both cases (bloodtheft and the requirement
of Invulnerability) address the same issue: the killing blow. No
matter how precise the timing, those two things couldn`t occur at the
same time. (Unless, again, they were actually the same act--a stab
to the heart.) However, I could see someone making an argument that
it`d work. It`s so strange a scenario, however, that I think I`d
reserve it for DM fiat/NPC background rather than let players go
around attempting such a thing.

Shameless Plug: In my version of the bloodline system, New Scions,
whether a scion with Invulnerability can be killed by an act of
bloodtheft or not is specifically addressed in the base power
description at level 7, the "great" power level of that blood
ability. An "invulnerable" scion can be killed in an act of
bloodtheft at base power 1-6 (at those levels sundry "survivability"
powers are gained) but it isn`t until he has the ability at level 7
that he can no longer be killed normally, and is thus immune to
bloodtheft. That text is available in the Supplements section of the
downloads area.

Hope that helps,
Gary

[dooley]

It's the last sentence in the description that's the killer (for want of a better word), "Unless it is truly destroyed, the blooded character does not lose any of it's birthright or regency."
However, since if this holds true it is now easier to rid Cerelia of the Gorgon than of several of the other Greater Awnsheghlien as he ISN'T Invulnerable, IMO blood silver trumps blood ability.

Paul

[Jaleela]

Gary, that's an interesting concept in your "shameless plug" section...the rising to a specific level before the "great" aspect of the blood ability kicks in.

Thanks guys.

J

[Birthright-L]

At 04:26 AM 12/21/2010, Jaleela wrote:

>Gary, that`s an interesting concept in your "shameless plug"
>section...the rising to a specific level before the "great" aspect
>of the blood ability kicks in.

In the original rules, Invulnerability only exists as a "great"
power. Many other blood abilities were only written up as one or two
of these "blood ability levels" if you will. In several ways, I
think that makes for an unwieldy system. Character generation is
awkward, especially in combination with the already existing
limitations on bloodline by derivation; the powers weren`t available
to many scions at all because "great" powers were out of
reach. Stuff like that.

One of the ideas behind the Blood Ability Points system that became
New Scions was that it should complete all the blood abilities. That
is, all the blood abilities should have minor, major and great
descriptions. Given that 3e+ is so much more articulated than 2e
was, there was also an opportunity to more carefully and particularly
flesh out those levels themselves, so each is subdivided into three
progressive levels in a base power.

Where possible I tried to address some of the vagaries of the system
(both the original and BAP) in the text. Of course, that`s an
impossible task to do completely, but things like this issue with
Invulnerability and bloodtheft come up from time to time here in the
Birthright community. It wasn`t until you mentioned it this time
`round, however, that the thought occurred to me that someone might
want to spin out a scenario in which the bloodtheft and the act
necessary to kill a scion with Invulnerability might occur at the
same moment. As I said, I don`t think I`d allow players to pull off
such a thing--though a lot of the players I`ve known would definitely
try it.... I don`t think it need be specifically addressed in the
rules, but it is the kind of thing that reading these forums is good
for. "What if..." scenarios don`t always come up, but its nice to
have considered them in advance should they, or should something
similar come along.

Gary