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  1. #1
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Canon lore or Fanfic

    The wiki contains a lot of the start-up details for most major temple domains. May I suggest that you make use of the categories on the wiki. Start at Category:Religion (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...egory:Religion), go from there to Category:Temple:Avani, Category:Temple:Sera etc and within each of them you will find Categoryomain:TEMPLENAME which will contain all pages relating to each particular domain.

    I am afraid I can't tell you off the top of my head which domains have the most detail (except that I know that temples of Haelyn have lots on them).

    Sorontar
    Last edited by Sorontar; 08-30-2010 at 11:50 PM.

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    So, let's say you (which is to say, "I") felt creative, and wanted to expand with some fan-based creativity for one of the religions/faiths - what's the best way to present that? Here (for "general approval"), or under a specific faith, or in an appendix under the god/dess, or where?

    Specifically, it would be an elaboration of the Saramite doctrine, or at least one possible direction someone might take that for a faith. Doesn't need to be tied to one particular faith, as it merely expands on the sadly narrow "Profit is good" dogma.

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    There are pages already for various doctrines, including ones that are shared between some temples. See [[doctrine]].

    The way to do fan-based variations of d20 BRCS pages is to start a new page with an appropriate title. If it is your work and you want to keep it so, then call it [[User:Cuchulainshound/Doctrine_of_Saramie]] etc. If you don't mind others editting it, then just leave out the User bits. Copy anything from the original that you want to include and edit away. Mods like me will then create links in the BRCS or other restricted pages that will point to your page.

    See [[Faiths_of_worship]] for how this was done for Haelyn-related material.

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    And include a Fan fiction header?
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rey View Post
    And include a Fan fiction header?
    Fan Fiction banners are only appropriate if the page takes an 'unusual' view - otherwise almost every page would wind up with one. It's a tough call, all of my pages seem reasonable to me for example (well, except the one on Prince Raesene), but generally I'd recommend fan fiction only if changing something canon (i.e. the name of a duke) mentioning an anachronism (bringing in magical versions of stuff), etc.

    I'd suggest hitting a discussion tab if you aren't sure, if anyone meeps then slap the banner in, otherwise the page is kosher. Plus you get to show off your page in an inoffensive manner that way.

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    I dunno - the last BR game I was in, I was playing a church of Sarimie, and someone addressed a letter to my Regent as "Sacred Broker". I took it as an intentional insult and slight until, OOC, they explained that they got it straight off this site (here). It's clear that not everyone's "creativity" is equally appreciated by all (nor is it reasonable to expect it to be).

    That's actually a major problem I've experienced with this site (and heard echoed by others), that canon and fan-fic are shuffled indiscriminately, to the point of this site being nearly useless if canon-only is the desired goal.

    I don't know what the official policy is, but wouldn't it be better to have anything that is not from published material labeled clearly as such? I mean, unless we're just rewriting it all... (which, in some cases... er, never mind.)
    (English is the idiot bastard child of incestuous European cousins.)

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    Well, in the end, all of the material should be considered optional, weather fan fic or canon (that is, domain sourcebooks). All the PS' have a disclaimer that says players should discuss with the DM which "facts" can be used in campaign, depending on the DM's vision of campaign. Your players should present you with all they've discovered and you have to confirm it or reject it.
    Even official PS' are sometimes rejected by DMs, and I think the view of BR community is that a fair number of this PS fact stuff is subject for a serious discussion.

    Btw., there is also a possibility for all of us to link our personal writings as our personal views on the matter.
    Still, I think it should be somehow visible that something is not a part of what was officially printed. But then again, there are pages where you have to single out sentence by sentence of fan fic among official.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    The problem is:
    • the canon publications are sometimes contradictory
    • they are sometimes not easily workable
    • they are also rather minimal on details

    The community decided that part of the objective of the community and the wiki is to extend the setting. Part of this was to create the d20 BRCS which tried to fix some of the ruleset problems as well as express it in the d20 structure. The rest is to work in a wiki environment to produce more detail on the domains, people, places etc that make Birthright what it is to each of us. Even here there are contradictions, but when these are discovered, we try to talk them over.

    Therefore, the wiki is pretty much all fan fiction and it is not really worth trying to pick out which bits come from canon and which don't except when debate arises.

    Personally, I like to at least say were the bulk of the original data came from, even if I don't cite individual components. A good example of this is the [[Yikarian Empire]], which I have tried to map into the d20 BRCS, giving the regents/vassals more character in the process and making the holdings more competitive. But at the bottom of the page, I mention what it is based on.

    Sorontar
    ps. Awnsheghlien like [[Hoarfrost]] are classic examples of minimal canon data that I have tried to start extending. Need I really say what is canon when there is barely anything in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    The community decided that part of the objective of the community and the wiki is to extend the setting...

    ..Need I really say what is canon when there is barely anything in the first place?
    Actually, S, according to how this Wiki is currently presented, yes, you should. Or make it clear, on every such page, that it's just not reliably canon.

    The Wiki Main Page heavily implies that all this information is "correct" - and fan-fic, in this context, is neither correct nor incorrect, it simply is.
    Main Page
    So why a Birthright wiki? As you're going through looking for information, if you see something that's incorrect, you can correct it. If you see any information that's missing, you can add it. This way, the information here should be as up to date as possible, instead of having to wait for a small group of people to update the information...
    So if I add that "The Gorgon prefers blondes" - then, okay, now suddenly that's "correct" (because I've just corrected it!). Really?..

    There is at the bottom of that very first paragraph what looks like it might be a caution/disclaimer (altho' that appears targeted more at editors than readers) - if followed, that text only reinforces the implication of "canon"...
    However, this is not Wikipedia, and we have slightly different ways of doing things - for more info, see About BRWiki ->

    BRWiki:About
    The BR Wiki is a wiki containing articles relating to the Dungeons & Dragons Birthright Campaign Setting which is the property of Wizards of the Coast (WotC)...
    Well, if it's related to the WOTC D&D BRCS (as opposed to being related to the world in general), then it must be canon, right? Wrong...

    It's not until half-way down that page that the reader, finally, is given the actual situation...
    What the BR Wiki is clearly therefore not is 'canon', or 'right'.
    ...which, to me, directly contradicts that opening section that states that if something is not "correct" it will be corrected!

    (Now, I'll tie in Rey's comments before continuing my own, but don't lose that thought...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rey View Post
    Your players should present you with all they've discovered and you have to confirm it or reject it.
    The problem is that while your suggestions are valid for a table-top game, the BR Game I was referring to was an on-line, 40+ player game, which means the GMs get many hundreds of e-mails and scores of questions each day. There is no way that 1) they can realistically screen that many queries, b) that the GM's can then get all the players on the same page with what is "true" vs. "not true", and/or iii) that that many players can be relied upon to check their own understanding of the game with them each time (altho' an on-line wiki makes that easier to do). So "This game is canon, unless otherwise stated" is the usual fiat.

    Now, unless someone owns all the books ever published, that understanding of "canon" is nigh unto impossible to achieve. So they turn to the internet - and invariably stumble upon this site (or it's simply recommended). And canon is immediately corrupted, but only those who read for content understand that (read "about 15%, if yer lucky.)

    And while I'm not stating that this site "should be canon", I will state three things which I think are self-evident:

    1) If canon were clearly separated from fan-fic, this site would be much more useful.
    2) If canon is not to be separated, then that should be MUCH more clearly stated and emphasized, as the first thing seen by the new visitor (and on every page, for those arriving to a sub-page via a Search Engine).
    3) Fan-fic cannot be expected to please everyone, nor even close.

    I include that last because, while any GM is, of course, perfectly capable of changing canon details, most simply don't - they state at the outset of a game "The game will be canon", and call it good until something specific catches their attention. However, most also know the material from the books, not this site - and once this site enters the picture, as presented the info here muddies the waters unnecessarily - which, I believe, is exactly the opposite of one of the stated goals of this site, in'it?

    My point is that separating fan-fic from canon is something that would be a "good thing". However, if the community decides it's not desirable (or simply not practical at this point), that state really should be far more strongly advertised/emphasized on the Main Page and on any page where fan-fic exists (which may be every one at this point).

    Because as it stands, for the average reader (much less the average non-Native English reader), it seems that coming to this site does less and less to help them with BirthRight, but more and more to help them with Sor's & Rey's & Andrew's & Cuch's world.
    Last edited by Cuchulainshound; 10-21-2010 at 08:20 PM. Reason: page 2, added quote for context
    (English is the idiot bastard child of incestuous European cousins.)

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    Cross post - read the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    In practical terms a 'canon' only site would be almost useless amounting to a download of the pdf's only - which would probably breach copyright in any case.
    (The only one who has suggested "canon only" is you, afaict. Not sure why you're even mentioning this.)
    (English is the idiot bastard child of incestuous European cousins.)

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