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  1. #11
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    There is an interesting argument/interpretation to be made when it
    comes to bloodline that could address some of the issues having to do
    with familial lines the way Lord Rahvin is talking about. That is,
    one of the problems that seems to often crop up amongst the BR
    community is the possibility of some scion somewhere starting up some
    sort of breeding program. The problem with the system as presented
    in the original materials is that bloodline is a straight averaging
    of the parents` bloodline. On its face, that does seem to make good
    sense, but on reflection what kind of inheritance works that
    way? Genetically we are a random combination of our parents` DNA,
    with recessive traits, mutations and the interaction of a massively
    complex structure leading to all kinds of strange, random characteristics.

    Of course, bloodline having a divine source means it needn`t work
    anything like the way biology functions, but I`d argue that if
    anything that source means that bloodline should result in things
    that are even MORE strange and unpredictable than DNA. After all, it
    is by definition beyond the ken of mortals, so shouldn`t it be beyond
    the (overly) simplistic averaging two numbers?

    There are two major ways that I see this kind of issue taking effect:

    The first is bloodline score. If we think of bloodline as being made
    up of four factors (derivation, strength, score and blood abilities)
    then it seems like some of those factors should be based on
    family/inheritance. Derivation, for example, doesn`t seem like it
    should be randomized. Similarly, strength is the kind of thing that
    is pretty generalized and is based upon a direct family/lineage
    link. Bloodline score, however, seems like it could be where this
    kind of thing could take effect. What if derivation and strength are
    determined by parentage, but score is determined randomly for each
    scion? In the original materials there is a table for determining
    bloodline score that provides a wide range of values. It`s possible
    using that system to have a bloodline score for a tainted bloodline
    (4d4; max 16) that is higher than a minor bloodline (score 5d6; min
    5) a major bloodline (score 8d6; min 8) or even great bloodline (8d8;
    min 8 again.) That`s an awful big range, and expresses a kind of
    randomization in effect that is very dramatic.

    So, what would happen if parentage determined only bloodline
    derivation and strength but not score? Well, in the original
    materials there`s still not much of a reason for a scion NOT to have
    a breeding program because an act of bloodtheft results in at least a
    point of bloodline strength no matter what. My own interpretation of
    how bloodtheft works changes things so that bloodline only increases
    if the victim of the attack has a score within 20 points of the
    thief, and even then the increase is only a possibility. In
    combination the two game mechanics make for a very interesting
    system, but also make it less likely someone would want to breed
    scions because their score might be so low as to make the program worthless.

    It would also make family dynamics interesting. First borns might
    not be the best to lead if one were to consider their bloodline score
    as the guiding factor. The rivalry between siblings would be related
    to a more obvious and quantifiable value. There`d be a conflict in
    most Cerilian cultures (that are based on European ones) which
    feature primogeniture. What if a second or later child was
    demonstrably more better to rule, other factors being equal? There
    are all kinds of implications to how leadership might work using such
    an interpretation.

    The second issue is blood abilities, and on this one I`m much less
    sure about how one would want to game mechanically portray the
    issue. However, the game itself doesn`t deal with this issue very
    well, and never has. In the published materials there are families
    in which the members have the same blood abilities, which hints that
    in at least some cases, blood abilities are supposed to be
    inherited. (I`m thinking in particular of the family of Aram ibn
    Malik described as the protectors of The Sielehr in the BoM p80, all
    of whom have the Long Life blood ability.) This seems like a natural
    way of portraying bloodline and its abilities, and leads to some
    interesting characters. Unfortunately, there`s no game mechanical
    way of representing this in the setting materials. There could be
    any number of ways of going about such a thing, but it seems like it
    is evidence that blood abilities--which are determined randomly in
    the game--might not be as random as all that.

    Gary

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    There are 'defective' genes in every living creature, and more arise spontaneously due to genetic damage over time. Sexual reproduction and paired genes are so utterly dominant in RL precisely because they prevent flawed genes from manifesting to start with or being passed down. Nor is the only risk from in-breeding the obvious deformities etc - the vulnerability of homogeneous stock to disease and parasites is very apparent.
    We seem to be discussing similar things in different, but related, threads. Disease and parasites can be fairly readily countered by magic.
    Culling and careful selection of the breedstock in an organised atempt, or basic survival of the fittest deals with many of the problems.

    Indeed, sometimes it worked, mostly it didn't - compare horses to zebra's or dogs to cats. Comparing humans to dogs, cattle, sheep, chickens etc makes clear that selective breeding hasn't worked well in practice with people. I'd also note that it generally needs a lot of wealth and time to properly breed for desired traits, despite our millennia of effort only a tiny minority of animals and plants have been effectively & deliberately selectively bred by humans.
    When it has worked it's changed things totally, the most common bird on the planet is the domestic chicken.
    Virtually all attempts at human selective breeding have always had some group of genetically inferior people getting to add to the mix because they were the sponsors.
    Birdkeeping is not that expensive, though it can be time consuming just like any other hobby. The number of traits in each of the thousands of species that are kept in the hobby increase year on year.
    Most of the plants and animals are still unknown to most people so the premise is false, and you seem unaware of just how many hobbyist Aviculture and Horticulturists are busy creating their own hybrids of species to bring out traits they want.

    In terms of other bloodlines dying out, inheritance under 2e (+1 to highest of the two as Dan noted above) is sufficient to stop this occurring, while fairly rapid wastage of off-core line bloodlines is required to stop bloodlines becoming commonplace.
    The problem with relying on Investiture to maintain the strength of the major players is what do you do about the sudden loss of blood when it fails? Surely you're not trying to say that the core bloodlines have never suffered a break in the Investiture chain? It's doubtful for any one of them, let alone all of them

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L View Post
    The first is bloodline score. If we think of bloodline as being made
    up of four factors (derivation, strength, score and blood abilities)
    then it seems like some of those factors should be based on
    family/inheritance. Derivation, for example, doesn`t seem like it
    should be randomized. Similarly, strength is the kind of thing that
    is pretty generalized and is based upon a direct family/lineage
    link. Bloodline score, however, seems like it could be where this
    kind of thing could take effect. What if derivation and strength are
    determined by parentage, but score is determined randomly for each
    scion? In the original materials there is a table for determining
    bloodline score that provides a wide range of values. It`s possible
    using that system to have a bloodline score for a tainted bloodline
    (4d4; max 16) that is higher than a minor bloodline (score 5d6; min
    5) a major bloodline (score 8d6; min 8) or even great bloodline (8d8;
    min 8 again.) That`s an awful big range, and expresses a kind of
    randomization in effect that is very dramatic.
    Interesting.
    Makes getting the bloodline Investiture pretty much a have to have, whilst at the same time making it pretty bad when it's stopped.

    So, what would happen if parentage determined only bloodline
    derivation and strength but not score? Well, in the original
    materials there`s still not much of a reason for a scion NOT to have
    a breeding program because an act of bloodtheft results in at least a
    point of bloodline strength no matter what. My own interpretation of
    how bloodtheft works changes things so that bloodline only increases
    if the victim of the attack has a score within 20 points of the
    thief, and even then the increase is only a possibility. In
    combination the two game mechanics make for a very interesting
    system, but also make it less likely someone would want to breed
    scions because their score might be so low as to make the program worthless.
    Less likely that the powerful would do so really.
    A caster of True magic due to having a Taint (5) can see many benefits still.
    The fact that it's only a possible increase will in some ways make slave farming more likely, as needing to kill multiple scions for an increase is a lot more work than gutting a few slaves.

    The second issue is blood abilities, and on this one I`m much less
    sure about how one would want to game mechanically portray the
    issue. However, the game itself doesn`t deal with this issue very
    well, and never has. In the published materials there are families
    in which the members have the same blood abilities, which hints that
    in at least some cases, blood abilities are supposed to be
    inherited. (I`m thinking in particular of the family of Aram ibn
    Malik described as the protectors of The Sielehr in the BoM p80, all
    of whom have the Long Life blood ability.) This seems like a natural
    way of portraying bloodline and its abilities, and leads to some
    interesting characters. Unfortunately, there`s no game mechanical
    way of representing this in the setting materials. There could be
    any number of ways of going about such a thing, but it seems like it
    is evidence that blood abilities--which are determined randomly in
    the game--might not be as random as all that.
    Isn't there a list of the abilities of those of el Arassi blood in the Ariya Players Secrets?
    Roele blood has Courage and Divine Strength, but probably not Detect Poison based on BoM p79

  4. #14
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dooley View Post
    We seem to be discussing similar things in different, but related, threads. Disease and parasites can be fairly readily countered by magic.
    Culling and careful selection of the breedstock in an organised atempt, or basic survival of the fittest deals with many of the problems.
    It takes a L3 clerical spell to stop disease, which is far from common and certainly unable to handle an epidemic, deal with genetic disease (spells impacting genes tend to be higher level and wizard spells, none are in 2e canon that I recall), while parasites will simply repeatedly infect a vulnerable host given a source stock even if they are impacted by the spell itself. The basic premise of survival of fittest also argues strongly against repeated inbreeding as the inbred are likely to be 'weaker' than their competitors. This is far less of a problem for humans than animals - witness the european royals - but will still have an impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by dooley View Post
    When it has worked it's changed things totally, the most common bird on the planet is the domestic chicken.
    Virtually all attempts at human selective breeding have always had some group of genetically inferior people getting to add to the mix because they were the sponsors.
    Birdkeeping is not that expensive, though it can be time consuming just like any other hobby. The number of traits in each of the thousands of species that are kept in the hobby increase year on year.
    Most of the plants and animals are still unknown to most people so the premise is false, and you seem unaware of just how many hobbyist Aviculture and Horticulturists are busy creating their own hybrids of species to bring out traits they want.
    I never questioned the rare successes, merely the assumption that it would work with any animal easily and the suggestion that inbreeding issues are mythical or take so long to arise that they can be ignored.

    Birds such a pigeons, which Darwin was particularly fond of have indeed been bred over a prolonged period to create visible distinct birds that he rhapsodized over - but he also noted that left to breed on their own they rapidly returned to the rootstock of the rock pigeon - you need a breed that does not return to stock to support your arguments of new lines of blooded animals, that is much harder to encourage and create.

    In the context of this thread, human breeding programs have never come close to success of breeding certain animals and plants - people are attracted to those with different genes and far more able to circumvent breeding restraints than animals in most circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by dooley View Post
    The problem with relying on Investiture to maintain the strength of the major players is what do you do about the sudden loss of blood when it fails? Surely you're not trying to say that the core bloodlines have never suffered a break in the Investiture chain? It's doubtful for any one of them, let alone all of them
    Breaks are inevitable, but if investiture raises the line on average, then over time then the frequency of breaks will impact whether lines average to increase or decrease. To get a stable system it needs to balance out - increasing the power of inheritance requires making failure to inherit more common. Whether inheriting the bloodline should be the dominant factor in the math is much more interesting as a debate - but tends to make high bloodlines difficult to sustain.
    Last edited by AndrewTall; 08-29-2010 at 12:19 PM.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    It takes a L3 clerical spell to stop disease, which is far from common and certainly unable to handle an epidemic, deal with genetic disease (spells impacting genes tend to be higher level and wizard spells, none are in 2e canon that I recall), while parasites will simply repeatedly infect a vulnerable host given a source stock even if they are impacted by the spell itself. The basic premise of survival of fittest also argues strongly against repeated inbreeding as the inbred are likely to be 'weaker' than their competitors. This is far less of a problem for humans than animals - witness the european royals - but will still have an impact.
    Could be major use of the Healing ability too, and parasites can be eradicated from an area.
    If we're talking about farmed blood again then culling will be done to the weak, by making them the first animals hunted.
    in the case of wild the the likely ones perish and the unlikely but superior ones flourish

    I never questioned the rare successes, merely the assumption that it would work with any animal easily and the suggestion that inbreeding issues are mythical or take so long to arise that they can be ignored.
    Poor-Poor will result in bad next generation, no doubt about that. Consistently only breeding Good-Good does mean that it's usually several generations before problems arise, and I never said you ignore them, I've been advocating the culling of the weak from the breeders in any planned attempt.

    Birds such a pigeons, which Darwin was particularly fond of have indeed been bred over a prolonged period to create visible distinct birds that he rhapsodized over - but he also noted that left to breed on their own they rapidly returned to the rootstock of the rock pigeon - you need a breed that does not return to stock to support your arguments of new lines of blooded animals, that is much harder to encourage and create.
    No I don't need a stable new breed because that's merely what you assumed I was talking about, rather than asking me if that was so.
    I've given a mechanism for how a cluster of blooded animals could occur in an area, and the fact that they're a resource to be exploited. I also commented on the fact that the mechanism could be done by those who wanted to with a little ability.

    In the context of this thread, human breeding programs have never come close to success of breeding certain animals and plants - people are attracted to those with different genes and far more able to circumvent breeding restraints than animals in most circumstances.
    Unfortunately those capable of breeding for blood in Birthright are also those most likely to be able to force their will onto others.
    From a personal moral and ethical standpoint it's vile, but as a DM I like it. There's no shades of grey about it it's WRONG
    As I mentioned on the blood animals thread PCs trying to do this will make me smile, and as any Player knows "NEVER trust a smiling DM!"



    Breaks are inevitable, but if investiture raises the line on average, then over time then the frequency of breaks will impact whether lines average to increase or decrease. To get a stable system it needs to balance out - increasing the power of inheritance requires making failure to inherit more common. Whether inheriting the bloodline should be the dominant factor in the math is much more interesting as a debate - but tends to make high bloodlines difficult to sustain.
    Making Investiture so critical does give a bit too much power to priest regents IMO, something not reflected in the number of theocracies, or church dominated kingdoms on Cerelia. Somebody will have a problem with any system though.

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirviriam View Post
    Generally speaking, how long till there's no more blood or magic in Anuire?

    It's been awhile since I've been reading the BCRS scores thing, but it seems to me like someone set it up so everyone but the bloodstealers would become common folk in the near future. Especially after the BCRS then halved the blood line scores. Failing that rampant inbreeding occurs?
    Check the "sanctioned" chapters 1 and 2 from the link on top of the threads for BRCS. Replace the existing ones with those for the most up to date versions.

    The blood score went back to roughly what it was.
    Duane Eggert

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