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Thread: Blood score rising/decline
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08-28-2010, 10:15 PM #11
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There is an interesting argument/interpretation to be made when it
comes to bloodline that could address some of the issues having to do
with familial lines the way Lord Rahvin is talking about. That is,
one of the problems that seems to often crop up amongst the BR
community is the possibility of some scion somewhere starting up some
sort of breeding program. The problem with the system as presented
in the original materials is that bloodline is a straight averaging
of the parents` bloodline. On its face, that does seem to make good
sense, but on reflection what kind of inheritance works that
way? Genetically we are a random combination of our parents` DNA,
with recessive traits, mutations and the interaction of a massively
complex structure leading to all kinds of strange, random characteristics.
Of course, bloodline having a divine source means it needn`t work
anything like the way biology functions, but I`d argue that if
anything that source means that bloodline should result in things
that are even MORE strange and unpredictable than DNA. After all, it
is by definition beyond the ken of mortals, so shouldn`t it be beyond
the (overly) simplistic averaging two numbers?
There are two major ways that I see this kind of issue taking effect:
The first is bloodline score. If we think of bloodline as being made
up of four factors (derivation, strength, score and blood abilities)
then it seems like some of those factors should be based on
family/inheritance. Derivation, for example, doesn`t seem like it
should be randomized. Similarly, strength is the kind of thing that
is pretty generalized and is based upon a direct family/lineage
link. Bloodline score, however, seems like it could be where this
kind of thing could take effect. What if derivation and strength are
determined by parentage, but score is determined randomly for each
scion? In the original materials there is a table for determining
bloodline score that provides a wide range of values. It`s possible
using that system to have a bloodline score for a tainted bloodline
(4d4; max 16) that is higher than a minor bloodline (score 5d6; min
5) a major bloodline (score 8d6; min 8) or even great bloodline (8d8;
min 8 again.) That`s an awful big range, and expresses a kind of
randomization in effect that is very dramatic.
So, what would happen if parentage determined only bloodline
derivation and strength but not score? Well, in the original
materials there`s still not much of a reason for a scion NOT to have
a breeding program because an act of bloodtheft results in at least a
point of bloodline strength no matter what. My own interpretation of
how bloodtheft works changes things so that bloodline only increases
if the victim of the attack has a score within 20 points of the
thief, and even then the increase is only a possibility. In
combination the two game mechanics make for a very interesting
system, but also make it less likely someone would want to breed
scions because their score might be so low as to make the program worthless.
It would also make family dynamics interesting. First borns might
not be the best to lead if one were to consider their bloodline score
as the guiding factor. The rivalry between siblings would be related
to a more obvious and quantifiable value. There`d be a conflict in
most Cerilian cultures (that are based on European ones) which
feature primogeniture. What if a second or later child was
demonstrably more better to rule, other factors being equal? There
are all kinds of implications to how leadership might work using such
an interpretation.
The second issue is blood abilities, and on this one I`m much less
sure about how one would want to game mechanically portray the
issue. However, the game itself doesn`t deal with this issue very
well, and never has. In the published materials there are families
in which the members have the same blood abilities, which hints that
in at least some cases, blood abilities are supposed to be
inherited. (I`m thinking in particular of the family of Aram ibn
Malik described as the protectors of The Sielehr in the BoM p80, all
of whom have the Long Life blood ability.) This seems like a natural
way of portraying bloodline and its abilities, and leads to some
interesting characters. Unfortunately, there`s no game mechanical
way of representing this in the setting materials. There could be
any number of ways of going about such a thing, but it seems like it
is evidence that blood abilities--which are determined randomly in
the game--might not be as random as all that.
Gary
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08-29-2010, 09:54 AM #12
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We seem to be discussing similar things in different, but related, threads. Disease and parasites can be fairly readily countered by magic.
Culling and careful selection of the breedstock in an organised atempt, or basic survival of the fittest deals with many of the problems.
Indeed, sometimes it worked, mostly it didn't - compare horses to zebra's or dogs to cats. Comparing humans to dogs, cattle, sheep, chickens etc makes clear that selective breeding hasn't worked well in practice with people. I'd also note that it generally needs a lot of wealth and time to properly breed for desired traits, despite our millennia of effort only a tiny minority of animals and plants have been effectively & deliberately selectively bred by humans.
Virtually all attempts at human selective breeding have always had some group of genetically inferior people getting to add to the mix because they were the sponsors.
Birdkeeping is not that expensive, though it can be time consuming just like any other hobby. The number of traits in each of the thousands of species that are kept in the hobby increase year on year.
Most of the plants and animals are still unknown to most people so the premise is false, and you seem unaware of just how many hobbyist Aviculture and Horticulturists are busy creating their own hybrids of species to bring out traits they want.
In terms of other bloodlines dying out, inheritance under 2e (+1 to highest of the two as Dan noted above) is sufficient to stop this occurring, while fairly rapid wastage of off-core line bloodlines is required to stop bloodlines becoming commonplace.
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08-29-2010, 10:16 AM #13
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Interesting.
Makes getting the bloodline Investiture pretty much a have to have, whilst at the same time making it pretty bad when it's stopped.
So, what would happen if parentage determined only bloodline
derivation and strength but not score? Well, in the original
materials there`s still not much of a reason for a scion NOT to have
a breeding program because an act of bloodtheft results in at least a
point of bloodline strength no matter what. My own interpretation of
how bloodtheft works changes things so that bloodline only increases
if the victim of the attack has a score within 20 points of the
thief, and even then the increase is only a possibility. In
combination the two game mechanics make for a very interesting
system, but also make it less likely someone would want to breed
scions because their score might be so low as to make the program worthless.
A caster of True magic due to having a Taint (5) can see many benefits still.
The fact that it's only a possible increase will in some ways make slave farming more likely, as needing to kill multiple scions for an increase is a lot more work than gutting a few slaves.
The second issue is blood abilities, and on this one I`m much less
sure about how one would want to game mechanically portray the
issue. However, the game itself doesn`t deal with this issue very
well, and never has. In the published materials there are families
in which the members have the same blood abilities, which hints that
in at least some cases, blood abilities are supposed to be
inherited. (I`m thinking in particular of the family of Aram ibn
Malik described as the protectors of The Sielehr in the BoM p80, all
of whom have the Long Life blood ability.) This seems like a natural
way of portraying bloodline and its abilities, and leads to some
interesting characters. Unfortunately, there`s no game mechanical
way of representing this in the setting materials. There could be
any number of ways of going about such a thing, but it seems like it
is evidence that blood abilities--which are determined randomly in
the game--might not be as random as all that.
Roele blood has Courage and Divine Strength, but probably not Detect Poison based on BoM p79
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08-29-2010, 12:14 PM #14
It takes a L3 clerical spell to stop disease, which is far from common and certainly unable to handle an epidemic, deal with genetic disease (spells impacting genes tend to be higher level and wizard spells, none are in 2e canon that I recall), while parasites will simply repeatedly infect a vulnerable host given a source stock even if they are impacted by the spell itself. The basic premise of survival of fittest also argues strongly against repeated inbreeding as the inbred are likely to be 'weaker' than their competitors. This is far less of a problem for humans than animals - witness the european royals - but will still have an impact.
I never questioned the rare successes, merely the assumption that it would work with any animal easily and the suggestion that inbreeding issues are mythical or take so long to arise that they can be ignored.
Birds such a pigeons, which Darwin was particularly fond of have indeed been bred over a prolonged period to create visible distinct birds that he rhapsodized over - but he also noted that left to breed on their own they rapidly returned to the rootstock of the rock pigeon - you need a breed that does not return to stock to support your arguments of new lines of blooded animals, that is much harder to encourage and create.
In the context of this thread, human breeding programs have never come close to success of breeding certain animals and plants - people are attracted to those with different genes and far more able to circumvent breeding restraints than animals in most circumstances.
Breaks are inevitable, but if investiture raises the line on average, then over time then the frequency of breaks will impact whether lines average to increase or decrease. To get a stable system it needs to balance out - increasing the power of inheritance requires making failure to inherit more common. Whether inheriting the bloodline should be the dominant factor in the math is much more interesting as a debate - but tends to make high bloodlines difficult to sustain.Last edited by AndrewTall; 08-29-2010 at 12:19 PM.
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08-30-2010, 07:15 PM #15
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Could be major use of the Healing ability too, and parasites can be eradicated from an area.
If we're talking about farmed blood again then culling will be done to the weak, by making them the first animals hunted.
in the case of wild the the likely ones perish and the unlikely but superior ones flourish
I never questioned the rare successes, merely the assumption that it would work with any animal easily and the suggestion that inbreeding issues are mythical or take so long to arise that they can be ignored.
Birds such a pigeons, which Darwin was particularly fond of have indeed been bred over a prolonged period to create visible distinct birds that he rhapsodized over - but he also noted that left to breed on their own they rapidly returned to the rootstock of the rock pigeon - you need a breed that does not return to stock to support your arguments of new lines of blooded animals, that is much harder to encourage and create.
I've given a mechanism for how a cluster of blooded animals could occur in an area, and the fact that they're a resource to be exploited. I also commented on the fact that the mechanism could be done by those who wanted to with a little ability.
In the context of this thread, human breeding programs have never come close to success of breeding certain animals and plants - people are attracted to those with different genes and far more able to circumvent breeding restraints than animals in most circumstances.
From a personal moral and ethical standpoint it's vile, but as a DM I like it. There's no shades of grey about it it's WRONG
As I mentioned on the blood animals thread PCs trying to do this will make me smile, and as any Player knows "NEVER trust a smiling DM!"
Breaks are inevitable, but if investiture raises the line on average, then over time then the frequency of breaks will impact whether lines average to increase or decrease. To get a stable system it needs to balance out - increasing the power of inheritance requires making failure to inherit more common. Whether inheriting the bloodline should be the dominant factor in the math is much more interesting as a debate - but tends to make high bloodlines difficult to sustain.
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08-31-2010, 08:57 AM #16
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Check the "sanctioned" chapters 1 and 2 from the link on top of the threads for BRCS. Replace the existing ones with those for the most up to date versions.
The blood score went back to roughly what it was.Duane Eggert
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