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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    Blood score rising/decline

    Generally speaking, how long till there's no more blood or magic in Anuire?

    It's been awhile since I've been reading the BCRS scores thing, but it seems to me like someone set it up so everyone but the bloodstealers would become common folk in the near future. Especially after the BCRS then halved the blood line scores. Failing that rampant inbreeding occurs?
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    I would think as long as a royal family always has a large number of children that wouldn't happen. I've always thought the opposite. How long until the royal blood is spread very thing to a large % of the general population. By large I mean 20ish %. (I recall in the 2nd ed rule book it said about .1% or so of all people had some kind of blood)

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    If you assume the bloodline halves every generation, then even a
    bloodline of 100 will dwindle to 0 in 7 generations.

    On the other hand, if you assume that the children of a regent tend to
    have a lower bloodline than their parent (because most regents will
    marry someone with a lower bloodline than themselves), but that the
    direct heir of the regent is invested with their progenitor`s
    bloodline, then major bloodlines will only decrease very slowly over
    time. How fast depends on how often you imagine the investiture to
    fail (because the regent dies before it can be done, the heir is
    usurped, or whatever).

    In fact, in the second model, bloodlines will tend to increase over
    time, I think, as regents occasionally raise their bloodlines, and
    their children slowly increase as well, resulting in slow growth over
    generations.

    For example, if the first generation of dukes all had a 50 bloodline,
    they would probably marry unblooded people (since their spouses didn`t
    fight at Deismaar), and their children would have bloodlines of 25.

    The second generation of dukes might have a 51 (invested from their
    predecessor), and they would marry those 25s; the third generation of
    lords would have bloodlines of 38.

    The third duke might have a 52, marry a 38, and have children with a
    45 bloodline.

    It wouldn`t be as regular as that, obviously, but it seems possible.

    Occasionally marrying into a more-blooded house would boost the
    bloodline even more. In the novel, Michael Roele`s 6 or 7 sisters all
    married dukes. That next generation was probably quite a heroic era.

  4. #4
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Inheritance is potentially the key to the endurance of bloodlines - particularly if two blooded parents leave their bloodline to the favoured child.

    The second point is family size - with even minor clerical magic (L0 spells are sufficient) death in childbirth becomes almost unheard of for a noble, cure disease, create food and drink, and any curative spell also significantly increases the chance of surviving childhood - likely to almost 100%. As such unless the noble family compensates by using prophylactics families of a dozen or more children are likely to occur in noble families - even ignoring bastard offspring.

    As an example, with inheritance increasing to at least the parents strength and denoted with a + sign leads to:

    Generation 1: 40
    Generation 2: 40+; 20 * 5
    Generation 3: 40++, 20+*10, 10 * 25
    Generation 4: 40+++, 20++*15, 10+ * 75, 5 * 125

    If you factor in inter-breeding and other scion families the question starts to be why isn't everyone blooded if inheritance always strengthens the original line to at least the parents score.

    There is the odd issue with inheritance brought up a little while ago of leap-frogging generations - the parents probably die a little while after becoming grandparents, with clerical magic the die possibly even after becoming great grandparents - that delay in inheritance slows down the above expanse considerably if factored in although the top number will keep bouncing up as the elder heir eventually fails a shuffle check and passes on the big family bloodline.


    Random events will tend to drag bloodline scores down (looking at both 2e and brcs) which make it much harder to lose RP/BLS than to gain it. This assumption of loss appears however due to expectations of the masses - if everyone becomes weak then it is easier for the good few to shine out and so while the average level may fluctuate over time if it drops too low you get ghenghis khan/alexander the great etc whomping everyone around them and gaining massive strength from success which is then passed on to many 9likely many many) children.


    The key issue is the strength of inheritance, if the children fail to gain at least the original strength of their parent, then decline in the overall level is almost inevitable. If inheritance adds several points to each tier's top bloodlines then an explosion is probably equally inevitable barring frequent failure to inherit.

    As a rule I'd want levels to slowly rise over time excluding external events, so that the Gorgon's harvesting of bloodlines makes sense and acts as the ultimate restraint on bloodline levels. That suggests that each generation should expect to add a point or three from inheritance, great deeds, usurpation, etc with successful families adding 1-3 more and failing families losing the same. The Gorgon's 2-3 generational rivings then act to cull the greatest lines by their gains over the period leaving us with a coppiced sort of approach - with the maiden (or standard) trees culled and the underwood then left t strive for greatness in the renewed light.

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    > If you factor in inter-breeding and other scion families the question starts to be why isn`t everyone blooded
    > if inheritance always strengthens the original line to at least the parents score.

    Well, nearly everyone in England can trace their family back to
    William the Conqueror, right? Same with Mongolia and Ghenghis Khan.
    Those lords only lived a thousand and 800 years ago, respectively.
    Deismaar was 1524 years before the "present" of Cerilia.

    I think the key there is the first stat I posted, that a bloodline of
    100 would die out after only 7 generations; a score in the twenties
    would only make it 5. Commoners wouldn`t have access to investiture to
    maintain their bloodline across generations, and wouldn`t have most of
    the clerical magic you mentioned, either.

    So it seems to me that nobility would tend to marry each other to
    maintain their own nobility (bloodline), and any bloodlines that
    escaped into the wild would peter out pretty quickly.

    Assuming a 30-year generation, it has been 51 generations since
    Deismaar, so I think you`d see a core of noble houses, and then very
    minor bloodlines among those who can trace their ancestry to a noble
    within living memory. If family legend has it your great-grandfather
    was a duke`s byblow, you might have a 1 or 2, any farther than that
    and it doesn`t make a difference.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanMcSorley View Post
    > If you factor in inter-breeding and other scion families the question starts to be why isn`t everyone blooded
    > if inheritance always strengthens the original line to at least the parents score.

    Well, nearly everyone in England can trace their family back to
    William the Conqueror, right? Same with Mongolia and Ghenghis Khan.
    Those lords only lived a thousand and 800 years ago, respectively.
    Deismaar was 1524 years before the "present" of Cerilia.

    I think the key there is the first stat I posted, that a bloodline of
    100 would die out after only 7 generations; a score in the twenties
    would only make it 5. Commoners wouldn`t have access to investiture to
    maintain their bloodline across generations, and wouldn`t have most of
    the clerical magic you mentioned, either.

    So it seems to me that nobility would tend to marry each other to
    maintain their own nobility (bloodline), and any bloodlines that
    escaped into the wild would peter out pretty quickly.

    Assuming a 30-year generation, it has been 51 generations since
    Deismaar, so I think you`d see a core of noble houses, and then very
    minor bloodlines among those who can trace their ancestry to a noble
    within living memory. If family legend has it your great-grandfather
    was a duke`s byblow, you might have a 1 or 2, any farther than that
    and it doesn`t make a difference.
    No human ruler starts 100 or even close, take a generate or two off that estimate.

    Great point Dan on the cost of investiture! Do we dare discuss if the ceremonies by canon are over inflated & monks or poor parish priests will conduct the ceremony with minimal fuss for reasonable or 3 month's wages type of cost?

    As to the relation thing - is that proven unbroken chains or just people who want to think they have connection? I'm 50% Irish...but on St.Patrick's Day, everyone is Irish!
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    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Inheritance is potentially the key to the endurance of bloodlines - particularly if two blooded parents leave their bloodline to the favoured child.

    ...

    If you factor in inter-breeding and other scion families the question starts to be why isn't everyone blooded if inheritance always strengthens the original line to at least the parents score.

    ...

    The key issue is the strength of inheritance, if the children fail to gain at least the original strength of their parent, then decline in the overall level is almost inevitable. If inheritance adds several points to each tier's top bloodlines then an explosion is probably equally inevitable barring frequent failure to inherit.

    ...
    At what point do you need new genes in the pool? We know there's an extremely high defect rate in 1st & 2nd cousins medically speaking. Scion families can't just keep marrying off reliably...though I agree if you have just 3 kids per family with 30 countries avoiding 2nd cousins is more a headache of tracking the lineage than a true scarcity. That said, the feuding between houses will make sphere's of influence for breeding the truly major scions. That 3 per rule would be a stretch though, from what I've read none of the rulers in players secrets have more than a handful & the Mode is 1 with Mean is close if not 1.

    So the argument of large ruling families is out. The bastard angle holds more water, but harder to track via published books(there are definitely some mentions, but even more rare than 2 children in human noble families - lets go ahead and acknowledge that's probably due to lack of funds for making the game->thus time invested in game story fleshouts). Let's also acknowledge that 95% of bastards will not have an inheritance & die out.

    ...or is that the gorgon's plan...inbreed the powerful clans until the peasants thank the gorgon for killing off the drooling moron's on the thrones of each realm!

    PS: I had read Dune series awhile back, one of the 'ruling estates/classes' was the priesthood of logical/deadly nuns ... they had the power to live forever or nearly a thousand years. They didn't because people are jealous and it would cost the nun's their power base & probably their lives. Fit's in with the social code people on these forums argue for using in campaigns (who cares if the elves do it).
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    In my own personal model, I prefer to regard bloodline and family
    separately. Bloodline becomes more connected to "House", so you could have
    related, branching but distinct bloodlines, even within the same family.
    Likewise, two members of the same bloodline might be, under some situations,
    members of different families.

    In this model, players who go off and gain prestige and lands and titles can
    establish their own Houses, and their own bloodlines, and might have
    children that they might choose to marry off to family members of another
    bloodline...

    Also, I like to assume that bloodline strength score is essentially random
    for each individual, and the family`s bloodline score is just some kind of
    average. This allows for those occasional "special births" that the family
    hasn`t seen since your Great Grandfather Benedict. Why, you even look a
    little like him. Your brother, who has a lower bloodline score, would always
    be seen as something less and would never live up to your potential,
    harboring resentment and ill-will for years until one day...

    When bloodline strength score is more random, and family bloodlines are
    considered much smaller units, you have a lot more interaction and story
    plots to work with without things becoming all weird. I would still base
    the random score on the family bloodline strength score, so on average it
    can still go down over time... just at a much slower rate, and the
    composition of the bloodline is more likely to die off and spawn other
    bloodlines.

    Thus, even if you do trace your ancestry all the way back to the first
    Emperor of Anuire... (and who doesn`t?) that doesn`t necessarily mean your
    bloodline is his, or that you have his destiny.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirviriam View Post
    At what point do you need new genes in the pool? We know there's an extremely high defect rate in 1st & 2nd cousins medically speaking.
    Actually the defect scare stories usually only apply if there are preexisting problems in the family, and many of the others are because of Teratogenesis.
    If there aren't defective genes then there's actually LESS chance of a problem, it's outbreeding that will bring in new bad genes. Plus the infinitesimal mutation chance of course.
    It's when the defective are allowed to breed generation on generation, as in the noble families of Europe, that the problems occur.
    This obviously doesn't negate the "Ich, with my cousin?" factor.

    For thousands of years humans have been line-breeding animals to get the traits they want and culling those they didn't want.

    Scion families can't just keep marrying off reliably...though I agree if you have just 3 kids per family with 30 countries avoiding 2nd cousins is more a headache of tracking the lineage than a true scarcity.
    Heralds in RL were there in part to keep the "stock" books up to date. Somebody will be doing the same thing in Cerelia as it's a source of wealth and power

    That said, the feuding between houses will make sphere's of influence for breeding the truly major scions. That 3 per rule would be a stretch though, from what I've read none of the rulers in players secrets have more than a handful & the Mode is 1 with Mean is close if not 1.

    So the argument of large ruling families is out. The bastard angle holds more water, but harder to track via published books(there are definitely some mentions, but even more rare than 2 children in human noble families - lets go ahead and acknowledge that's probably due to lack of funds for making the game->thus time invested in game story fleshouts). Let's also acknowledge that 95% of bastards will not have an inheritance & die out.
    One of the many problems I have with the d20 and 3.x versions of how blood works is that if you try and apply those rules to reach 551MR from when blood was first given by the death of the old gods then the Gorgon has already won. All the other bloodlines have died out.
    Unless people say the mechanism for blood has changed (and if it has when and why?) any rule in use now should be able to cover the entire history since Mt. D

  10. #10
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dooley View Post
    Actually the defect scare stories usually only apply if there are preexisting problems in the family, and many of the others are because of Teratogenesis.
    If there aren't defective genes then there's actually LESS chance of a problem, it's outbreeding that will bring in new bad genes. Plus the infinitesimal mutation chance of course.
    It's when the defective are allowed to breed generation on generation, as in the noble families of Europe, that the problems occur.
    There are 'defective' genes in every living creature, and more arise spontaneously due to genetic damage over time. Sexual reproduction and paired genes are so utterly dominant in RL precisely because they prevent flawed genes from manifesting to start with or being passed down. Nor is the only risk from in-breeding the obvious deformities etc - the vulnerability of homogeneous stock to disease and parasites is very apparent.

    Quote Originally Posted by dooley View Post
    For thousands of years humans have been line-breeding animals to get the traits they want and culling those they didn't want.
    Indeed, sometimes it worked, mostly it didn't - compare horses to zebra's or dogs to cats. Comparing humans to dogs, cattle, sheep, chickens etc makes clear that selective breeding hasn't worked well in practice with people. I'd also note that it generally needs a lot of wealth and time to properly breed for desired traits, despite our millennia of effort only a tiny minority of animals and plants have been effectively & deliberately selectively bred by humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by dooley View Post
    Heralds in RL were there in part to keep the "stock" books up to date. Somebody will be doing the same thing in Cerelia as it's a source of wealth and power
    Absolutely, they did for medieval families without bloodline and a direct power point will inevitably be noted just as noted intelligence, strength, weaknesses, etc were noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by dooley View Post
    One of the many problems I have with the d20 and 3.x versions of how blood works is that if you try and apply those rules to reach 551MR from when blood was first given by the death of the old gods then the Gorgon has already won. All the other bloodlines have died out.
    Unless people say the mechanism for blood has changed (and if it has when and why?) any rule in use now should be able to cover the entire history since Mt. D
    The rules stated in 2e were only ever adequate for covering bloodlines 0-100 - if a bloodline over 100 was even considered possible - I can't see anything clearly stating whether 100 could be exceeded and el-stony could be said as proving that the answer is 'no'.

    In terms of other bloodlines dying out, inheritance under 2e (+1 to highest of the two as Dan noted above) is sufficient to stop this occurring, while fairly rapid wastage of off-core line bloodlines is required to stop bloodlines becoming commonplace.

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