Anatomy of a Holding

[Vicente]

Well, 2e Birthright allowed for very fast falls, but not very fast rises. The rules for ruling and contesting are not symmetric at all. I like more the BRCS rule that Contest takes 1d3 levels out, but even with that there's always something weird about Contest, it feels too aggressive, not competition over influence.

Some games have a "Contested Rule Holding", where you rule up and take a level from another holding in the province, that feels much better with the description of trying to win the influence of others (at least for me).

[Birthright-L]

At 03:47 AM 7/16/2010, SirRobin wrote:

I`ve also preferred to look at holdings more on a "how much influence" rather than "how many buildings" scale. It lets it remain more fluid.


If you`re thinking of holdings "in the abstract" then the math of the system is pretty simple. A holding (1) in a province with a population level of 4 represents influence over 25% of that population`s legal, economic or religious life. A similar sized source holding in a province that has a potential source level of 4 is similarly 25% of the magical energies of that province. How much influence that influence represents is a little generalized. That is, I don`t think a guild(4) in a province(4) necessarily means that the guilder is in control of every ha-penny that changes hands in that region. Rather, the guilder`s influence is probably more like a tax (10% to 20%, maybe 50% depending on how one wants to interpret things) on the large scale economic activity of the region. Similarly, a temple ruler who controlled all the possible holding levels in a province would not become a monotheistic religion, but would have influence over all the temples whether they were dedicated to the same god has s/he or not. That is, they all "kick up" a percentage of their tithes to the temple regent, or maybe they just make a symbolic tribute to him/er on a regular basis. (A gift of earth and water if one were inclined to think of things in the 300/Persian Empire kind of way....) Essentially, those who act in spheres controlled by the regent who controls the respective holdings must do so at the pleasure of that regent--at least for activies that themselves rise to the domain level of play.

For example, an adventurer could probably sell all the booty gained from a foray into a nearby haunted keep without ever dealing with a regent. But the traders to whom he sold the treasure would have to kick up a percentage of his profit to the regent who controls the guild holdings in the area. Similarly, a citizen could offer up any sort of prayer s/he likes in a province and to whichever of the gods they want. However, if anyone were to hold a ceremony worshipping that deity the local temple regent would get wind of it, and likely shut down anyone who "freelanced" using social pressure upon the population. Nobody need necessarily say "get out" to the person holding independent services. They might simply turn away, maybe making some superstitious warding sign as they wander off....

To get around that social pressure would require a domain level action to create a Holding(0). Then the person has a foothold. He still has no influence, really. People might not show up at his services, but they don`t turn away either.

Even in the abstract, there are still some gaming effects that you might want to consider. For instance, I`ve always thought it made sense to have the holdings represent the ability of a regent to perform general administrative activities. A regent who controlled a law(4) holding in a province with a population level of 6 might be able to learn the whereabouts of a particular criminal should that person be in hiding. The chances of that happening might depend on he size of the law holding less the levels of the population that are NOT influenced. The aforementioned regent might have a 2 in 10 (4 levels -2 levels uncontrolled) chance per day to get info on his target.

Guild and temple regents might have a similar ability, though one less directly related to finding a particular person. A guilder might use this sort of thing to locate a lost/stolen item. A temple ruler might be able to use this ability to have a scribe/cleric in his employ create a copy of a book. Etc.

Gary

[HimekawaMiyako]

So many answers, and none of them that really share the same feelings as Miyako.

Holding Levels: Assets and Resources
This note is a guideline detailing in brief what each holding level represents. The exact form a holding takes can vary considerably. Different cultures, different regents, changing times and strategies; holdings are like the mist over water as winter flows homeward.

Influence
The influence section concerns a theoretical, general opinion of the population of the region toward a Regent with a specific holding level. Although regents may have a strong reputation preceding them, people do not usually respect them without seeing a tangible representation of power. Otherwise, since all things are transient, why should they care?
Rights and reputation will not necessarily command everyone.

Level 0 Holding
These are vast potential; trouble waiting to happen or trees with delicious fruits. They encompass contacts with agendas supported by a regent (not necessarily without some stealth or deceit involved).
Regents generally must ensure they save face should the worst happen. If they do not, political rivals will often take the opportunity to stain their reputation whether something heinous was occurring or not.
Contacts are not capable of ‘extensive government influence’. They confer minor favors, and probably have information about vital identities or resources.
Contacts are essential on the first steps of the path to a tangible power base.
Government officials being bribed for favors, small groups of spies, a terrorist cell, an ambitious farmer with a new food recipe, or a few missionaries preaching and looking for converts are some examples.

Level 0 Structures
If there are any structures, they will likely make use of the surrounding landscape or cityscape; temporary nature is the guideline. Possibilities include tents, caravans, street stalls, or repurposed houses. Lackeys of Regents will make use of the resources their master’s Contacts have.

Level 0 Activities
These holdings are probably involved in some kind of ‘petty scheme’, influencing court cases, or in the case of guilds trying to secure favorable trade contracts for their regent. They could involve scouts doing surveys to uncover hidden farms in the case of a law holding. All groups might engage in selling goods and promotions to the public. Street stalls with exotic merchandise, posting legal or illegal fliers, writing graffiti in prominent places, giving out free tissues with advertisements, handing out scripture; the options for small activities are as varied as the imagination.

Level 0 Influence
The regent has a reputation for being a powerful, but distant and inconsequential political figure. The people might know about the regent, or be aware of historical actions depending on how fast news travels. But it is like reading a storybook.
It is also probable that the Regent lacks appropriate rights in the legal sense, or has few family ties to ensure their authority.

Level 1-3 Holding
Turbulent balances of power like lilies floating on the tranquil pond. Its presence is noticed and appreciated, but given little authority because it is still like the tides of the ocean. Sometimes it has influence, and other times it does not, guided by the whims of fate. Like the lily, a life of spiritual purity (in this case prudent management) will reveal a transcendent clean blossom.

Level 1 Structures
A small, minor structure is the largest manifestation of temporal power. In the case of a Temple holding it is a Shrine, an effigy, or a roadside guardian; people leave offerings at these places and hope for divine protection.
Guild holdings might have small alleyway shops off a main street or street vendors working out of carts or stalls. They lack the reputation to secure more prominent places, and tend to be ‘hidden treasures’. Manufacturing or resource gathering often involves a personal touch, making use of family skills and household labor.
Products are finished to a high quality because small manufacturers need good reputations to survive. Many seemingly trivial courtesies will be exchanged; finished products will usually take longer and are for a smaller product base. Small groups can only make so much at once.
Law holdings do not yet have very much resource to utilize; they lack appropriate facilities and personnel. The rule of law could be extended by unreliable methods like bounty hunters, thugs, or other subcontractors. If the law has a ‘legitimate’ flavor, perhaps one sheriff can only do so much, or must balance the needs of the populace with their own. For example, the sheriff might not be able to punish a prominent village family because of the prestige they are given.

Does anyone want to try building on this?
We can also include all the good ideas everyone posted here.

[Gwrthefyr]

I tend to see holding's direct staff as being roughly equivalent to the character's leadership rating with the holding level as the stronghold bonus; basically a low level character with a 0-level holding and poor Charisma would probably just have a beleaguered assistant stuck there trying to make his best of the situation. Influence networks would be eventually tied to it but I'm never sure how to deal with it, maybe a system similar to the "centers of power" thing but with no real limit and reworked to fit the BR domain rules.

[AndrewTall]

I figure that to get to L0 you are already 'somebody' to several hundred people - and the status will have respect from those people and those about them. As the holding level increases more respect is granted and by more people.

The vast majority of 'minor nobility' never even reach L0, so I would expect L0 to basically be where you 'hit the radar' of the great and good (by definition the great are good, anyone saying otherwise publicly will swiftly regret it).

I would note that I dislike the view that control over 50% of holdings = control over 50% of the total population. I see BR as having many many tiers of power, with nothing like the sort of huge central bureaucracy that we see in the modern world. A guild 4 in a province 4 in my mind controls not 100%, but probably less than 25% of the total large-scale trade, royalty rights, etc - the rest is diffused in a thousand hands and ignored as it is not available for control in any meaningful or permanent sense. A source may be different, but even then I like to think that no level of control is absolute.

[Benjamin]

My take reverts back to the population table we developed for the BRCS.


Table 5-1: Province Level
Level Citizens Largest Settlement
0 ....... 0 ........ Thorp
1 ....... 1,000 .. Hamlet
2 ....... 4,000 .. Village
3 ....... 7,000 .. Small town
4 ...... 10,000 .. Large town
5 ...... 20,000 .. Large town
6 ...... 30,000 .. Small city
7 ...... 40,000 .. Large city
8 ...... 60,000 .. Large city
9 ...... 80,000 .. Metropolis
10 ... 100,000 .. Metropolis

Next I assume that not everyone in a province actively supports the holding, except in a few specific realms (temples in Ghamoura certainly, Talinie perhaps). Then I look at the holding.

A guild (1) in a province (2) has up to 1,000 people of the 4,000 people (max, much likely less) living there using its services. This means that when all the guilds are accounted for, there are still several thousand people not served by the guilds. I consider this loss due to competition (mud slinging turns off consumers) and inefficiency.

The same applies to temples. A temple (2) in a province (3) [max 7,000 people] has up to 4,000 people supporting the faith. Another faith in the province may have up to 1,000 supporters. The rest of the people can't decide which church they like, don't go to church, don't have time to attend, etc.

If a guild or temple obtains total dominance in a province, then almost all the people are more likely to support it, whether out of fear (thugs or damnation) or social convention. A few guild (0) or temple (0) may occur from time to time, but these have very few supporters (a few score at best).

[dooley]

Unfortunately there's a serious flaw when you apply the above system to more populated areas.
The extreme case of the Imperial City shows this to the greatest effect:
At least 84,000 people without any real religion, and 91,000 who the guilds don't make a copper from.

[Retillin]

Unfortunately there's a serious flaw when you apply the above system to more populated areas.
The extreme case of the Imperial City shows this to the greatest effect:
At least 84,000 people without any real religion, and 91,000 who the guilds don't make a copper from.

It's 40,000 people left free with religion and 80,000 with the guilds. However do remember one thing. These are just the leaders and money movers who make regency. It does talk about the "old" guilds in the city that still control much of the trade, they just are not the same power brokers that Guilder Kalien and the rest of the guilds are.

In the second ed rules, you could not build a holding higher than a level 7. This was done, at least I think it was done, to prevent a 100% monopoly. To allow others to want to fight and have a reason to fight for control of such a prized holding, even if it's only a 3 in a 10.

[dooley]

It's 40,000 people left free with religion and 80,000 with the guilds. However do remember one thing. These are just the leaders and money movers who make regency. It does talk about the "old" guilds in the city that still control much of the trade, they just are not the same power brokers that Guilder Kalien and the rest of the guilds are.

In the second ed rules, you could not build a holding higher than a level 7. This was done, at least I think it was done, to prevent a 100% monopoly. To allow others to want to fight and have a reason to fight for control of such a prized holding, even if it's only a 3 in a 10.

I'll stand by my numbers:
WIT(3)=up to 7000, LPA&MOC(2ea.)=up to 4000 each, CJS(1)=up to 1000
Therefore a maximum of 16,000
With minimums of 6004 if you always have at least the maximum of the next lower level, and EIGHT if you only need to have more people than the lower level

Could you give a page number for the limit on holding levels as I can't seem to locate it.
Closest I can find is that you don't get any more income if the PROVINCE is above 7, or your holding is above 6th level on table 18 (p43)

I'll also say that it's only the numbers i have a problem with, the idea that you control up to your share and not merely your share is a valid one.
Mind you the horrors of company towns with company stores is valid if one person controls ALL of a holding type

[AndrewTall]

The numbers make much more sense if you make the system linear, 1 point of population = 10,000 hearths / taxpayers / people / frog owners / etc.

An alternative is to say that in any medieval setting you should only be measuring 'cream' though, the vast majority of activity is barely above subsistence and would not generate the free capital that the realm system takes as a given, as such the bulk of the people 'should' be 'free' - perhaps you could take a 'core members' approach under the standard population where the lower number is the number of members under central direction and the remainder are associated but simply beyond practical control.