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  1. #21
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    I agree if Anuire is like Spain it feels sooo small

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirviriam View Post
    True, I'm just trying to figure out Gwrthefyr's argument ... he's mentioning division structured armies with flintlocks (which birthright's seasonal or elite pre-blackpowder armies don't have) & the fact he's not operating with BCRS's representation of units into this thing. I think it was like a unit of varsk riders is 50 + a 100 of support personal (in a clump as mentioned, but for unit break down's it's simpler to establish a ratio).

    After that we have a commonly established base movement across plains without roads. From there we apply terrain modifiers & have a speed for every part of the continent & can judge how long it would take for an honor guard of one kingdom to cross (not conqueror) the continent
    I mention later armies because we have numbers on those along with numbers on some campaigns of the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, and the numbers some of you want for movement were only ever reached in the 19th centuries: I'm pointing out how anachronistic it is when even with more advanced supply systems and roads it still was almost impossible to pull off. The point flew over your head entirely, it's not about the armament, it's about the organization: we're not dealing with the roman legions. Also she, if you want to use something neutral use they, he is not.

    I don't operate with the more anachronistic elements just as I don't use the nonsensical assumption that the Brecht armies fight like in an Errol Flynn movie; the varsk riders might be indeed 50 people but the rest of the warcard is also men at atms. A knight unit won't all be knights because there was no such thing as an all-knights unit, the knightly formation was based on the lance where each knight would have a squire and a page fighting along. 100 support personnel doesn't mean this in the sense it's understood today, what would be support personnel then was not personnel at all, just camp followers, and they would not be paid or included in army numbers. And no army before the middle to late 20th century ever had official numbers that had a "bayonet strength" under 50%, in fact under 60% of the total people even, especially not in ancient times.

    And while Spain might feel a bit small, until the fall of Leon, the kings of Leon were considered emperors of Spain; technology changes the scale of things a lot
    Last edited by Gwrthefyr; 06-09-2010 at 12:17 AM.

  3. #23
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Don't we have historical data from Europe about army sizes and movements in the middle ages/Renaissance ? For example, the various crusades, invasions and defensive maneuvers. What can they tell us about it all?

    Sorontar

  4. #24
    The highest numbers I find are 10-12 miles a day, and they're for late anglosaxon England; in both cases they led to exhausted anglosaxon armies (Stamford Bridge and Hastings) - Stamford bridge was only won by the english because they caught the vikings by surprise and unarmored and were almost three times their number (15.000 vs 6.000), Hastings, well, we know what happened to the english there. These are armies in home terrain, following the equivalent of wood and dirt roads on mostly flat land. I had a book somewhere listing around 6-8 miles as the highest average speeds (50-ish miles a week) but I lost track of it. The 3-4 I've seen is for very harsh terrain, mountain combat and the like. Exhaustion in the worst cases can lead to almost no movement: at Hattin the franks were so exhausted they didn't even attempt a breakthrough. The 7th crusade took 3-4 months to get to Constantinople by sea, embarking in Provence (my mistake, the 5th was the failed bid of the latin empire; some sources call this one the 6th, obviously miffed that the only crusade to have any lasting chance at peace was led by an excommunicated near agnostic whose realms had freedom of religion, among other things ).

    A lot of the variation seems to be based on the general, which makes slight sense as the general makes the strategic decisions; having a system to represent the effects of overextended forced marches, surprise, and supplies might be the best bet: it wouldn't be too terribly hard really to take into account camp followers (which could get beyond ridiculous as the highest nobles would end up having the suites of the suites of their suites tagging along). The problem with much faster is not your soldiers, it's your supply train and your organization: sure an individual soldier can walk 20 miles a day, and cavalry on the rush can even do four times that if they push hard, but whether they can do it as a unit is a complete other matter.
    Last edited by Gwrthefyr; 06-09-2010 at 02:05 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwrthefyr View Post
    And while Spain might feel a bit small, until the fall of Leon, the kings of Leon were considered emperors of Spain; technology changes the scale of things a lot
    Well, probably my problem is that in Spain at that time there were very few realms: Leon, Castilla, Galicia, Navarra, Aragon, Portugal and Al-Andalus (if I remember things more or less right). While in Anuire there are a ton of realms out there. So that's why the two images don't work together in my head

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    Well, probably my problem is that in Spain at that time there were very few realms: Leon, Castilla, Galicia, Navarra, Aragon, Portugal and Al-Andalus (if I remember things more or less right). While in Anuire there are a ton of realms out there. So that's why the two images don't work together in my head
    Al-Andalus was divided into 24 principalities when it broke apart; the long titulature of the kings of Portugal and Spain adds up to 17 royal and 2 princely crowns (including Asturias), plus Viscaya.

  7. #27
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirviriam View Post
    So the maps aren't BCRS, besides yours?
    That one I didn't quite understand...

    The Aebrynis world maps I made are not related to the BRCS in any way; quite the contrary - they are breaking canon.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwrthefyr View Post
    I mention later armies because we have numbers on those along with numbers on some campaigns of the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, and the numbers some of you want for movement were only ever reached in the 19th centuries: I'm pointing out how anachronistic it is when even with more advanced supply systems and roads it still was almost impossible to pull off. The point flew over your head entirely, it's not about the armament, it's about the organization: we're not dealing with the roman legions. Also she, if you want to use something neutral use they, he is not.
    ...
    Gwrthefyr: I as a personal choice on this forum, do not use ' "argumentum ad hominem" ', your profile & posts in my thread at the time of my previous post simply didn't have any indicator that you were female. The fault is entirely yours for taking offense, no one could have known you were female without previous knowledge...UNLESS: they cast a realm spell! You consistently use poor taste in your language. Once you have been around for awhile, you will notice that many arguments on theoretical relationships here use certain basic assumptions or canon as the term is thrown around, it's perfectly reasonable for someone to verify you're operating with the same rules.

    I forgive you for getting catty. Welcome to my thread. I will say your last post was much better than your previous, thank you for those details.

    I was serious when I said I was trying to realize why you were using your anachronistic arguments? We already had established that weather, supply depots, resource levels in provinces were not factors & that we were searching for a base movement - yet there has to be a reason you brought it up. Especially after knowing elements like that developed later for "modern armies" of the French Revolution? This is where the confusion entered, like you came late to a conversation.

    GreenKnight: I'm not sure how to work your versions of the maps in there? If what you're saying about a week to cross a province, then we can just count the number of provinces & add weeks to the end for how long to march (minus terrain? maybe?). I was on your site last night for some other research & took a peak - very cool stuff by the way!

    So as the thread stands:

    We want a basic movement rate on plains without roads...minus weather/supply availability (as BR has no mechanics for them).

    -We know the modern man can march 15 miles in 8 hours with 30-50lbs & on rough, non-road terrain.
    -We don't know the pack & armor + weapon weight of particular armies...but don't want specifics based on racial armies of the humans - just an average.
    -We need to allow for armies without baggage trains & with baggage trains...two base speeds.

    New ideas to the thread on my part:
    Modern man is both taller & stronger than men from previous times? I have heard it both ways, back in the day English bow men supposedly had at least one arm bigger than the average thigh of modern men or that the average man now is taller by 4" or more than those of the dark ages. So maybe that's why they march slower? (Idea is hogwash, but amusing)

    We've got better carts/wagons to move the bulk of our supplies. It's the last thing I can think of besides laziness & no motivation (who wants to march in a conscript army anyways).
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwrthefyr View Post
    we're not dealing with the roman legions.
    Why not? These guys from the south banded together & conquered a continent? At least in the Imperial City we should be talking basically roman legions...if not the south & east coasts entirely.

    (Oh lord, another tangant ... how many can one thread support?!)
    Legacy of Kings: Member

  10. #30
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    GreenKnight: I mapped a province by province route using only plains & 3 mountain terrain types ... 53.

    If we use week = province that's 12 months to cross continent (assuming we don't stop to fight anyone, have unlimited food, march everyday, have paid the soldiers, promised new sneakers to every peasant & to plant their fields in their stead, etc, ...yes humor)
    Legacy of Kings: Member

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