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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrush View Post
    I did a ruck march with 35 lbs ruck 16 miles in 4 hours and im no He-man so a trained infanty unit could do 25 miles a day no problem
    Thank you for that fact! It's definitely in line with what I heard at the bar from other guys who served. Was that on the road or what sort of terrain?

    Every agrees that the armies move slower than current day armies, we're just quibbling over the details of how slowly
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  2. #12
    "includes support" is extremely silly, until the 18th century, support would consist of a crowd of unofficial civilians following armies (easily as many if not more people), and not be integrated in a unit, barring a few cases (Rome, China, a few others). I disregard it for all but knights (which I consider to be lance units: a third knights, a third pages and a third squires). I tend to run under the assumption that the typical infantry unit is about 250, and cavalry about 120, though. More or less. Averaging at 200 to be practical. The unit numbers I gave assume a mid-16th century version of the tercio, although it might have been earlier (the tercio as a unit dates from the 15th century after all, fantasy gun control be damned): it is made of roughly 3.000 soldiers: half are pikemen (1.500, 6-8 units of pikes), a third are light infantry fighting with sword and javelin (4-5 units of irregulars) and the remaining 500 are arquebusiers (let's say 2-3 units of mixed archers/crossbowmen to give an idea - this is where I crack open Mighty Fortress ). Add a company of mounted guards (I take for granted that a regent's bodyguard is almost always a cavalry unit unless stated otherwise), a retinue of knights for the few domains that can afford it (even then I count only about an average of 2 units per realm on average using the optional knight limitation house rule), and various other non household cavalry, typically about 4 units. Adding one troop of scouts and artillery and that's about it. Anything beyond is likely raised in emergency. Militias vary from vaguely functional to rabble, and in the worst cases your burgers might even end up paying off the poor of the city to take their place, leading to inexistant morale (the spanish knew about it during the french wars of religions, they gained at least one city just by luring away the famished town militia with food, leading to ransomed burgers, and a fed populace who would be less inclined to bite the spanish hand).

    I also do not operate under the assumption that major roads are in all provinces, no, it's as ridiculous as assuming 95% literacy in the late middle ages as the 3rd edition PHB does. Medieval troops also do not have uniforms or much of a marching beat, this kind of drilling comes from the gunpowder armies of the 16th-17th century, again exceptions exist, and obviously some units do need a form of discipline but not as seen in the modern era. And what good is playing a game of rulership if weather is not taken into account.

    Also they were not particularly unmotivated, no, they were typical of the period; the 3-5 miles extreme low I gave is actually numbers I've seen for the middle ages and the early renaissance (particularly the italian wars). But that was also because the artillery train was extremely slow; supply trains would similarly bog down, and stopping so much that you wonder if you've moved: yes the army likely moved more than that, but not in a straight line. You're still moving an entire tent city after all. And with population numbers as assumed, living off the land is not just an anachronism, it's an impossibility.

    Anecdata about how good you march won't change the issue at hand: it's not moving one person, it's moving a lot of people: I have a NYC pace even with a slight limp and can hike well enough (and regularly go through the city on foot), that still won't change my position, anything above 6 miles per hour requires advanced logistics, or will risk a lot of eventual attrition. When the Army of Italy did 18 miles a day they were seen as Heman, when the Grande Armée did 15 miles they were seen as He-man, hell, when they did 10 miles they were still feared.

    And while a single unit might fare better: a single unit is mincemeat waiting to happen.
    Last edited by Gwrthefyr; 06-07-2010 at 08:03 AM.

  3. #13
    I did that 16 miles on dirt road around baghdad airport for the german armed forces badge. but 25 miles on a dirt road or trail wouldn't be a problem most units would have a support vehicles following along wagons in fantasy or medival times with wagonkitchen and food stuff they would not just move out without any type of foodstuff or water.

  4. #14
    And yet almost no army moved anywhere near that fast until the 18th century. These are not roman legions, they're landsknechten and medieval footmen. The typical food rations of a soldier were on the order of a pint of beer, a pound of meat and a pound of bread a day: feeding 200 soldiers for two weeks requires about 4 tons of food, plus food for the animals (the meat tags along, it's not already packed, so pigs, sheep, bull), for their handlers, for the other camp followers: more like 10 tons (I'm tempted to do these calculations at some point actually: food/camp followers to campaign planning length). A walking army of the time period is basically a weaponized nomadic city.

    But it's a bit of a digression I guess...
    Last edited by Gwrthefyr; 06-07-2010 at 08:27 AM.

  5. #15
    well we can over analyze this till we all turn blue, but 25 miles a days for infantry along a road or trail is not a superman feat.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    We are basically just trying to find the range. We know two facts:

    Humans can do 25 miles a day with luggage.

    Any military organization moves at the speed of it's slowest part (in this case ox/horse/monster driven carts which probably rely on roads (ignore weather for purposes of the game as it's built into the terrain type movement cost).

    Both of you have helped greatly in the discussion, thank you guys!

    G - I was going to add that 18th century with entire units outfitted with flintlocks is a bit too much for birthright campaign settings.
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  7. #17
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    The important bit is not how fast a typical soldier can march - I can do 30 miles carrying 70 pounds in one day if I have to. And that's not even along a road - I can do it in rough terrain. And not only that, but I can do it with a company-sized formation without any serious delay. Not that I could keep it up for many days though...then I'd have to go somewhat slower...

    The important bit is how fast the baggage can travel. Ox-drawn carts on poor roads. Not so many miles...
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Knight View Post
    The important bit is not how fast a typical soldier can march - I can do 30 miles carrying 70 pounds in one day if I have to. And that's not even along a road - I can do it in rough terrain. And not only that, but I can do it with a company-sized formation without any serious delay. Not that I could keep it up for many days though...then I'd have to go somewhat slower...

    The important bit is how fast the baggage can travel. Ox-drawn carts on poor roads. Not so many miles...
    True, I'm just trying to figure out Gwrthefyr's argument ... he's mentioning division structured armies with flintlocks (which birthright's seasonal or elite pre-blackpowder armies don't have) & the fact he's not operating with BCRS's representation of units into this thing. I think it was like a unit of varsk riders is 50 + a 100 of support personal (in a clump as mentioned, but for unit break down's it's simpler to establish a ratio).

    After that we have a commonly established base movement across plains without roads. From there we apply terrain modifiers & have a speed for every part of the continent & can judge how long it would take for an honor guard of one kingdom to cross (not conqueror) the continent
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  9. #19
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    The BR box clearly states that a province is approx. 20-30 miles across and 1.000 sq./miles on average. As can be seen from the map actual sizes do vary, the above figure is pretty much etched in stone.

    Now, it never sat very well with me, which is why I changed it. I played around with several figures, but eventually ended up with 50 miles across and 2.500 square miles per province (on average). The end result you can see on my Aebrynis world-maps (the Earth-comparison maps is especially useful).

    Why?

    Primarily three things:

    1. Scope. Anuire became very small indeed, not at all to my liking in terms of the scope of things. The Anuirean 'Empire' wasn't all that large after all...and I had a hard time seeing all those diverse cultures fitting in that tiny continent. I wanted something grander, so I ended up multiplying the area by 2.5, which felt about right for me.

    2. Climate and terrain. Despite an lengthy e-mail from the designers detailing why Cerilia made sens in terms of climate, I never bought it. It actually made a lot of sense...but only if applied to a significantly bigger continent.

    3. Armies and warfare. Try as I might I could not get a coherent system working that allowed for warfare and movement on a weekly scale with such small province. Given the small size of provinces and the relatively small number of provinces in any realm movement became effectively meaningless; even heavy infantry co go pretty much anywhere in a week.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mirviriam's Avatar
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    So the maps aren't BCRS, besides yours?
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