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Thread: Develop Resources
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06-04-2010, 07:46 PM #31
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I do not like players taking slaves (or doing a lot of the evil they do because they think it is funny). In one game, a few of the players got the drop on some hobgoblins that laid down their weapons and surrendered. I was thinking that they would get stripped of all loot and sent along their way. The players bound the hobgoblins with rope, declared them slaves, and took them back to where the rest of the party was chilling. Another player was all about some slaves and said that they should cut off part of each of the hobgoblins foot so they could not run away, just like the player saw in the movie "Roots." The cleric in the group was all like, "yeah and then I will heal them so they do not bleed out."
that game ended right there
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06-04-2010, 09:16 PM #32
Slavery stinks, no doubt about it. But it has been common down human history and even some would say nowadays, so its existence in Cerilia is in my view inevitable - although mainly as 'foe' activity.
Too me slavery is fundamentally evil, but then the typical adventuring party motto of 'kill everything that moves' is somewhat morally dubious to say the least. I can accept the slaughter as self-defence and a strong degree of racism ('x' is inherently evil and will always be a threat to me/my family/my people) as racism arises, at worst, from ignorance.
Slavery, and for that matter torture, come however from desire for personal gain, which is where in my mind they cross the line into evil and don't fit in a RPG - I tried a game with an evil party (at player request), it was a dismal failure and I would never do it again.
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06-05-2010, 07:19 PM #33
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the topic of consideration was really how one could increase the productivity of holdings or provide benefits. I guess slavery would be taking from the resource that is labor; so a province that is being slaved could be lowered like troops are being raised there. A province that is level (3/2) could be slaved for 600 people then the province would shrink to level (2/3) and so on.
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06-05-2010, 08:10 PM #34
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Consider that there were always varying levels of slavery too & more importantly in the time of Rome slavery had an adverse affect on their man power & economy. Several near revolts & legionaire being of the few occupations for the unskilled free man were results.
Edit: In the spirit of this forum, where no one believes an evil regent can rule - rebellion can be made more likely if slavery does have common practice in the society.Legacy of Kings: Member
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06-05-2010, 09:31 PM #35
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The issue of slavery in BR can be contentious, but as often as not it seems wrapped up in the attitudes, maturity and character of the
players as much as anything else... and that`s the kind of thing that is very difficult to proscribe against--and it`s even debatable if
one should try. After all, people are interested in playing; it`s not a moral or psychological improvement effort.
So, with that said, I`ll just throw this kind of thing into the mix:
The system of feudalism upon which BR is based contained serfs. Serfs aren`t slaves in the technical sense, but in a practical sense the difference is pretty slight. Because they weren`t really defined as "property" exactly (sometimes they were considered to be "owned by the land" which meant whoever owned the land also owned its residents) serfs were occasionally able to work within their social class and even rise out of it. But for most of the feudal period, that was quite rare. Rare enough that it might be considered the provenance of PCs or the DM`s special NPCs. After Black Plague hit there was a lot of social change in Europe, but that`s really a function of the region coming out of the age of feudalism.
The most substantial question, though, is what does this really have to do with BR? The answer to that is very little directly. I find no references to a system of serfdom as it existed in the historical feudal period. In fact, the materials seem to go out of their way to describe the peasants in a more idyllic way than one would really have to think was the case for actual serfs. The feudalism of BR is in this (and several other) regards, a fantasy version.
I would compare the "feudal" social system of BR to the setting`s attitude towards women. Feminism is a very late model social system--but it is pretty well assumed in BR that women can lead, adventure and participate in the political process with little more than the occasional raised eyebrow. Historically, there certainly were women who did those things, but again they are the exceptions rather than the rule (and might be the PCs or DM`s special NPCs.)
So, with all that said, I`d suggest that slavery certain does exist in BR. But it`d likely be the fantasy version of slavery. Slaves would be the horribly mistreated workers in the mines controlled by orogs and goblins. They might be prisoners of the Gorgon. They might be the magically charmed thralls of Sidhe wizards. Etc. I would avoid anything that too directly looked like a "real world" system of slavery because the setting itself generally tweaks such things in favor of a more fantastic version of things.
A system of slavery that looked like the American South in the early 19th century would be wildly inappropriate. Neither does Rome work as an example. Rome`s slave economy is vastly different from the system of serfdom that existed 500-800 years later. Neither would the Greek or African systems of slavery. I wouldn`t let anyone use those as an example without an argument.
I also wouldn`t let the PCs own/sell slaves in any sort of direct fashion. It just doesn`t make for good gaming. Things go sour pretty quickly once that kind of element gets entered into the session, and it can quickly dominate events. It`s not "heroic" or even "epic" in the sense that the game should be to be playable, and players can get lost in a morass of "real world" comparisons or rationalizations for their actions. It`s a mess.
The role of slavery then, should be completely under the DM`s control. The only way that the players should be involved with slaves is in freeing them or dealing with their needs after they`ve escaped.
GaryLast edited by Thelandrin; 06-06-2010 at 01:02 AM. Reason: Vertical space adjustment.
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06-08-2010, 04:40 PM #36
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Getting this thread back on track, I was looking to develop other characteristics for provinces last year & had a list(which capped utilization of resources based on terrain), but it basically didn't work for balance as it all stems from the characteristics of terrain favoring certain nations. Specifically the map was not designed to give a fair go to everyone. Then using trade that logically followed the conclusion of the materials imbalance; I was no where near prepared to bring micro managed economics into the game I was trying to prepare (as real world economists can't agree on how it works - we'll never satisfy ourselves or anyone else).
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07-15-2010, 03:10 AM #37
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I'm sorry for sidetracking again.
Yes, the slaves are a problem for a campaign. No good character would even consider doing that.
But. Some players might want to play a different kind of campaign. Not all campaigns need to be good-based. If you put the rules down right, it could be 'fun', and why should villains be only NPCs?
Think of the Vosgaard based campaign. A player that is so good and blessed by the holly light of Haelyn, seeks justice and peace for this wretched region, sets on a lifelong quest to accomplish this goal and.... yeah, yeah, yeah, so utterly dull and already seen scenario over and over again wherever you look.
The evil campaigns need not be so evil as we may think. Even after a while, the neck slashing, back stabbing, eye poking routine goes sour. After all, "the goodies" are not that good, anyway. They are not preaching love every step of the way, they know the way of the sword and blood, the only difference is: they don't do it so openly, they use more subtle ways.
I've been penning slavery down for Vosgaard campaign. It revolves on the idea of using people do work for you, for free. Not doing quest or mutilation or trap testers. Just plain work force with no rights. Exploiting the resources, working the fields, entertaining the guests! Yes, you never considered Rome to be "an evil empire".
And if it leads to an economy fail and other complications, so be it. Just another twist for the campaign.Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel
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08-27-2010, 02:00 PM #38
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Based on RL examples what about human bodily waste.
The tanners, dyers, etc. might, because of the diet of the locals, pay a premium for the 'output' of certain provinces as it fixes better.
Perhaps a guilder PC gets his start by working on the 'Honey-wagon'
PCs are paid to guard a valuable cargo across a bandit infested area. Their joy when they find out what they've been guarding is so rewarding. It brings a whole new meaning to "taking the piss"
The PCs are the bandits, and are upset that the gold the wagons were carrying is of the liquid kind.
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08-27-2010, 02:11 PM #39
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Salt? Magical preservation only goes so far.
"working in the salt mines", is a classic punishment/use of slaves, but where exactly are these mines?
Interference, by use of watermagic, on the income of the mine owners by destroying shipments.
Anger of the purchaser as his food rots, and his people starve.
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11-23-2010, 04:49 PM #40
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Returning on the core subject
I'm not quite sure about coal as a dwarf only thing; humans in the real world used coal just fine and this sort of "it's a magical world" thinking annoys me. Although, true, it won't be as efficient as what we know today because coke (which is basically purified coal) wasn't used in blast furnaces before the late 17th century.
The dwarves might use coke, though, and have better steel.
So in addition to the list already given I've sort of made one; there's no prices but they're major-ish resources that I can think of going from the 15th to the 18th century for analogies (coffee and the ameyatl bits, especially, as they only seriously flourished in the carribean cash crop plantation system; I could see major princes trying to grab a small island or two and defending it preciously as a cash crop center a bit like Barbados or Martinique )).
- Lumber: I'd split between types; you don't do the same things with hardwood as you do with softwood, plus precious woods like ebony, wild cherry, cinnebar, sandalwood, etc (some hard, some soft).
- Crops (mostly the Cash sort): Wheat, Rye, Rice, Cotton, Sugar, "Tea" (from Djapar*, along with Opium and Nutmeg**), "Coffee" (from Aduria*, along with Cloves and Millet), Wine, Hemp, Flax, Indigo, "Cocoa" (from Ameyatl*, along with Tobacco, Coca, etc), Silk, Olives, Peppers, various Spices, Hops, Barley, etc
- Animal: Cattle, Pork****, Horses, Sheep, Goats, Camels although given the size and nature of the desert around Khinasi they probably do fine with horses, but also things like Cochineal (red dye), Purple Dye Murex (guess), Fishes, Chickens, Bees (HUGELY IMPORTANT), Ivory (in Aduria), Fur animals, etc
- Metals: Arsenic, Copper, Tin, Lead, Silver, Gold, Iron, Zinc, Platinum, Mercury (as an aside, platinum is more for a late renaissance game, it was discovered in the 1550s)
- Other Minerals: Granite, Quartz, various Gems, Pearls, Salt, Marble, Slate, Limestone, various types of Clay (queen of those being Kaolinite, the clay from which one makes porcelain "you found Kaolinite, lucky bastard" should probably be a result of a lucky roll of the dice unless the region you're in is expressly known for its porcelain exports), Glass***, Coal
- And for those who don't like to deal with the alignment system and would rather a more complex society, or evil people: slaves, although the lack of religious conflict would probably lead to slavers being less picky about who they capture and sell - not that this changed much, the italian slavers just went to Algiers for their christian slaves instead of holding slave markets on Piazza San Marco.
They can probably be reduced to a few labels, but a lot of them are "this resource is not equal to this one". I'm still sort of trying to introduce them to my revised system as part of a more living economy. When I'm not swamped, since I'm applying for grad school this year
*I assume that the cultivation of their equivalents should reach Cerilia at various times, for the first two "very soon" as in a generation or two, with sustained trade. Khinasi for tea, Anuire for coffee, Brechtür for the trade thereof - also Ameyatl is from the Adurian-related world maps.
**I was tempted to have Sahirde el-Mehare as a spice islands analogue
***Glass production in England was almost exclusively done with coal because of the lack of wood. In Venice, it was done using algae as a fuel which gave Venetian glass a relatively pretty green tint.
****Interestingly, I have a few papers on the meat trade in medieval western Europe; basically the middling peasants tended to raise pork to sell to the urban classes, and with the money they'd buy the beef over which the lord had monopolies thanks to punitive taxes on anyone who was not the lord trying to do anything with their cattleLast edited by Gwrthefyr; 11-23-2010 at 04:58 PM.
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