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  1. #21
    Well, that and I'm making my own world for the BR setting and so, doing that, I do come across some evil villains who would use Slavery in their regions as a manner of 'trade goods'.

  2. #22
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JakobLiar View Post
    Well, that and I'm making my own world for the BR setting and so, doing that, I do come across some evil villains who would use Slavery in their regions as a manner of 'trade goods'.
    Kal Kalathor has slave markets per canon, so does Hjorig - carefully kept secret from the dwarves of Daikhar Zhigun, Kiergaard openly runs on slaves, and they are probably common amongst all goblins, orog, etc realms.

  3. #23
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    The thing about prices for slaves is that historically they vary
    quite a bit.... Slaves intended as unskilled workers are often
    cheaper than horses, especially if they are of a group expected to be
    difficult to "break" into service. Trained and skilled slaves can go
    for very high prices.

    Then there`s a bunch of gaming issues. First off, there is a gaming
    standard in most RPGs that the PCs shouldn`t be able to hire out
    things that the DM meant to be challenges. The PCs are the people
    meant to clear out a dungeon. They shouldn`t be able to just hire
    out that job. In BR, of course, we have a slightly different take on
    these kinds of things since players can have characters who become
    regents, but a similar standard applies. There are LTs, followers,
    cohorts (in certain editions) and companions, but those NPCs aren`t
    meant to replace PCs, so you should be very cautious about letting
    players have slaves under some sort of supposition that they will be
    more useful than any other NPC. They shouldn`t be.

    Secondly, there are standards in the game that set prices such that
    PCs aren`t encouraged to turn away from adventuring in order to
    become merchants. The game is about dungeons and dragons, not
    deliveries and discounts. I`d be very cautious about letting PCs
    engage too directly in something like the slave trade for the same
    reason I don`t want them managing a gold mine. It just doesn`t lend
    itself to good gaming unless you have some extraordinary way of
    portraying such things.

    With all that said, I think the thing to do would be to extrapolate
    the price of a slave from the salary of a person who would be doing a
    similar job. That is, if you want to find the price of a slave you
    should figure the salary that a comparable worker would earn over,
    say, 10-20 years and use that as your baseline. You can add or
    subtract based on other considerations like the gender, health, etc.
    of the slave. In general, that`s the kind of math a real slaver
    would consider when setting a price and a buyer would consider when
    making a purchase. It`s a simple computation of value versus future
    value. When it comes to something like a human, of course, they
    might live shorter or longer than that period of time. Some kinds of
    slaves were bought specifically to be worked to death in very harsh
    conditions with the expectation that they`d only last a handful of
    years, and that they were cheaper to replace than keep healthy. That
    kind of thing should also be taken into consideration.

    Gary

  4. #24
    Heck no, my idea about it was the same as trading other resources. I had no intention to let the PCs use the Slaves as actual help to finish quests or anything of the sort. If anything, they would entirely revolt against the idea and attempt to make certain the PCs would fail... I mean, I'm fairly certain that if that was the case with me, I'd make them fail as miserably as I could even if it meant my life.

    If they had intentions to hire them out in mass, then I'd make them pay the same cost as their equivalent fighting group by explaining that the extra cost is not just to equip them but to ensure that they don't intend on leaving to fight for the enemy immediately.

  5. #25
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    I figure that the slaves are just a cheap work force, and the skilled ones just some sort of artisans/entertainers/etc. For instance, you want to buy your wife a slave harpist to entertain her while you're gone (if you're reach and have a palace, of course). Or you want a bunch of them no-skill peasant slaves to do simple tasks, to manage sheep or cows, tend the crops, or smth.

    No rule should allow using the slaves to solve puzzles, be used as cannon fodders or trap testers.
    But since there is a domain and province level play involved here, and there are evil characters, you should be able to employ slaves to do some work. They may be cheap, but no one said they are as eager as normal citizens to do their work, resulting in lower income. There is a way of keeping things under control.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

  6. #26
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Kal Kalathor has slave markets per canon, so does Hjorig - carefully kept secret from the dwarves of Daikhar Zhigun, Kiergaard openly runs on slaves, and they are probably common amongst all goblins, orog, etc realms.
    Kal Kalathor - agreed, though I believe the statement that the realm has remained amazingly neutral over the years except "for the occasional raid into neighboring lands" somewhat contradicts the large slave market described.
    Where then do the slaves come from? Intertribal warfare?

    Hjorig - Could you give me a reference here? I couldn't find a statement connecting slavery with this realm.

    That said, my initial hunch that Vosgaard is the primary region where to find slavery and slave trade seems supported. Molochev is another realm where a slaver guild is mentioned.

    With regard to Kiergaard, however, I believe that this is a different thing. This is a realm where the population is enslaved.
    In game terms, I would represent this by severe (or even more extreme) taxation. Unrest and rebellion would be quelled by the province ruler occupying, maybe even pillaging, his own provinces.

    This however does not necessarily mean that slaves are a tradeable resource here and regularily sold and exported from the realm.

    For a regular, large-scale, slave trade to exist you first need a market in need of labour you can't get any other way. In the real world, the colonies in the New World (mainly) provided this market, but I don't really see an equivalent to this in BR.

    You also need to get your slaves somewhere. In my view this requires both a culture where slavery is accepted and a political situation where the possibility to capture slaves exists.

    In Vosgaard, I see this, as there are probably always feuds and raids going on both between realms and between lower nobles (tribal leaders etc.). Also, many regents might not really have a problem with slavers enslaving a village or two in their realm as long as they get a share of the profits.

    However, most of the slaves will probably be sold within the region, with maybe a number exported to Khinasi lands (or worse, goblin or Awnsheglien realms).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rey View Post
    But since there is a domain and province level play involved here, and there are evil characters, you should be able to employ slaves to do some work.
    The equation 'evil characters = potential slave holders/traders' is a bit too simple for my taste. The attitude towards slavery of the evil characters' culture and the culture's economic system are more important than the characters alignment.

    For example, let's consider Norbert the Nasty, evil Anuirean noble. To work his lands, he doesn't need slaves, he has his peasants, mostly villeins, i.e. serfs, with a few freeholders thrown in.
    He treats his peasants harshly and their lot is quite similar to slavery, but still their legal status is different.

    Now Norbert goes to war against his neighbour Godwin the Good and captures a number of Godwin's peasants.
    What happens?

    Well, if he captures their village as well and keeps it, the peasants are now simply his serfs.
    If not, he still can't enslave them. This would bring him in conflict with the powerful church of Haelyn, which abhors the practice of Haelynites enslaving other Haelynites. This is not a conflict he is willing to risk.

    If he needs additional labour, he can try to add them to his serfs, but Godwin might then take legal action against him to get his peasants back.

    Perhaps it's easier to just kill them, maybe after torturing them to force them to reveal where they have hidden their valuables (if any).

    Or, if Godwin is as good as his name he might ransom them back to him. This also what he would do if he captured one of Godwin's knights (for a far higher price of course).

    So, no slaves for poor Norbert no matter what?

    Not really. Norbert managed to acquire the young Khinasi Kalim who waits on him. He shelled out quite a bit of money for him and treats him better than his peasants. Of course Norbert has to discipline his slave harshly for any mistakes, but still he is quite fond of this status symbol. So fond in fact, that he intends to have Kalim stuffed and mounted in his hall when Kalim ever dies.
    "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been."
    - The Three Kingdoms, attributed to Luo Guanzhong, c.1330-c.1400

  7. #27
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    Kal Kalathor - agreed, though I believe the statement that the realm has remained amazingly neutral over the years except "for the occasional raid into neighboring lands" somewhat contradicts the large slave market described.
    Where then do the slaves come from? Intertribal warfare?
    I'm thinking that it must be referring to large scale raids, with small scale raids, caravan attacks etc fairly common. Either that or every Vos with an aversion to outright murder just sells their enemies to the goblins...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    Hjorig - Could you give me a reference here? I couldn't find a statement connecting slavery with this realm.
    Apologies - it is Rzhlev, P75 Great Bay. Specifically referring to dwarven slaves captured from Daikhur Zhigun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    With regard to Kiergaard, however, I believe that this is a different thing. This is a realm where the population is enslaved.
    In game terms, I would represent this by severe (or even more extreme) taxation. Unrest and rebellion would be quelled by the province ruler occupying, maybe even pillaging, his own provinces.

    This however does not necessarily mean that slaves are a tradeable resource here and regularily sold and exported from the realm.
    P24 notes a guild called the slave drivers that work the fields and fish the coast... I presume that the slaves are either 'criminals' of some stripe, captured by raiders from the Gorgon's Crown, etc or in pirate raids - or sold to them. Field hands survive better than miners but even so harsh treatment will create a continual market for slaves to til the fields in Keirgaard. I presume that the fishers are hands in a larger boat, any slave given a dingy with a hope of making a run for it will probably do so. I'd expect the realm to be an importer - export slaves would be for what? Households and mines? I don't see many fine households in the Gorgon's Crown and that has goblins and dwarves for the mines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    For a regular, large-scale, slave trade to exist you first need a market in need of labour you can't get any other way. In the real world, the colonies in the New World (mainly) provided this market, but I don't really see an equivalent to this in BR.
    In Rome the slaves captured in wars displaced small holders from the fields allowing the nobles to expropriate vast tracts of land (while the small holders were away fighting the wars to win the slaves in the first place). The displaced workers then flocked to the city where they then lived on charity from patricians or the state - making the nobility very wealthy in the process despite the need for charity, slavery was thus far more profitable than small holding. P24 notes on Skaviks Red Furrow that the slaves are miserably treated in Kiergaard and often die, so you have demand for slaves in Kiergaard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    You also need to get your slaves somewhere. In my view this requires both a culture where slavery is accepted and a political situation where the possibility to capture slaves exists.
    Vosgaard aside, I see piracy and bandit raids as probably inadequate - the supply is erratic and small-holder scale. Possibly a truly appalling serfdom system which enslaves many of its populace breeding more into slavery (helots?) might suffice for the Crown and Kiergaard to create slaves internally. Otherwise we have finally found a natural counter balance to the spawning dragons, griffins, ogres and other slow-growing top predators that adventuring parties routinely slaughter without the faintest consideration of the ecological impact of their actions

    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    The equation 'evil characters = potential slave holders/traders' is a bit too simple for my taste. The attitude towards slavery of the evil characters' culture and the culture's economic system are more important than the characters alignment.
    It depends how you classify alignment. You could easily argue that feudalism is evil using modern standards, but plenty of nobles are merrily LG. Equally if one sees slavery as natural - they are simply inferior and need guidance, restraining, etc to fulfill their natural role, then why not have a lawful or good slaver? A slave-master doesn't have to mistreat their slaves anymore, than a factory worker in Dicken's time had to grind his workers into powder, it might be common and acceptable to do so, but some rise above nonetheless.

  8. #28
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    It depends how you classify alignment. You could easily argue that feudalism is evil using modern standards, but plenty of nobles are merrily LG. Equally if one sees slavery as natural - they are simply inferior and need guidance, restraining, etc to fulfill their natural role, then why not have a lawful or good slaver? A slave-master doesn't have to mistreat their slaves anymore, than a factory worker in Dicken's time had to grind his workers into powder, it might be common and acceptable to do so, but some rise above nonetheless.
    Think of how Feist and Wurts portay fictional Kelewan. Slavery is part of the Tsurani culture. But does that make all the Tsurani nobles evil?

    Sorontar

  9. #29
    Two examples of real-world slavery to complicate matter even more
    Ancient Egypt: all the people are slaves to the gods (and pharaoh is one of the gods, actually). This is great "all-slave" hierarchy, where anybody can be raised to position of "top slave" - "hand of the god" (... ahem, this god can be someone other than Azrai ). And anybody can be demoted to lowly quarry worker.
    Ancient Rome: even in this society some house slaves were often freed after the death of their owner. That was custom, not law, but also slave owner's right.
    (manumissio testamento or manumissio fideicommissaria - for those of us who likes roman law definitions )
    Many laws can be made evil or good, if used by different people.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Apologies - it is Rzhlev, P75 Great Bay. Specifically referring to dwarven slaves captured from Daikhur Zhigun.
    Thanks for the clarification!

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    P24 notes a guild called the slave drivers that work the fields and fish the coast... I presume that the slaves are either 'criminals' of some stripe, captured by raiders from the Gorgon's Crown, etc or in pirate raids - or sold to them. Field hands survive better than miners but even so harsh treatment will create a continual market for slaves to til the fields in Keirgaard.
    Well, I read this, but my assumption was (and still is) that the 'slaves' are basically the Brecht population of Kiergard. As such I think their numbers and economic impact should be included in the basic domain rules. We discussed resources as something of an "extra" and I don't think slaves qualify as a resource for Kiergard in this regard. Kiergard resources instead could be grain or fish. I hope this somewhat clarifies what I meant to say.

    BTW, for a realm described as "blasted and ruined", Kiergard has a remarkably high population in some of its provinces.

    I'm not convinced though that a market for slaves exist in Kiergard. On the one hand, slavery here seems to be a means to whittle down the population, i.e. it's a slow form of genocide. Apart from the description of Skaviks Redfurrow you quoted, consider this statement on p.25:

    Code:
    His gnoll and goblin armies use the area 
    to train and work off excess energy
    by slaughtering peasants
    If a slave's life is so cheap it's just not worth it to pay for it.

    In addition, off the top of my head I'd say that historically slaves as field workers were usually imported into areas to produce cash crops like sugar or cotton. These generated more income and made the investmenst in slaves viable. Kiergard however isn't described as producing these crops.

    The gorgon of course might still occasionally send 'criminals' or maybe a unit of goblins that displeased him as slaves to work the fields in Kiergard.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I presume that the fishers are hands in a larger boat, any slave given a dingy with a hope of making a run for it will probably do so.
    And end up like Robinson Crusoe?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Vosgaard aside, I see piracy and bandit raids as probably inadequate - the supply is erratic and small-holder scale. Possibly a truly appalling serfdom system which enslaves many of its populace breeding more into slavery (helots?) might suffice for the Crown and Kiergaard to create slaves internally. Otherwise we have finally found a natural counter balance to the spawning dragons, griffins, ogres and other slow-growing top predators that adventuring parties routinely slaughter without the faintest consideration of the ecological impact of their actions
    You mean, like spawning points for slaves somewhere in the wilderness?
    But that aside, I agree both with the helot system (perhaps in a few additional realms) and the inadequacy of piracy and bandits raids.
    Judging from a few economic maps of the ancient world, slaves were apparently captured in remoter regions, mainly from around the Black Sea - this seems somewhat fitting with Vosgaard as (the sole?) source of slaves in Cerilia.
    I'm not particular firm in African history, but from a few statements I recently read, some warlike African kingdoms were apparently based on the economic
    premise of enslaving neighbouring tribes and selling the slaves to the Europeans. It's an intriguing concept, but I don't really see an equivalent in Cerilia. Perhaps somewhere in Aduria?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    It depends how you classify alignment. You could easily argue that feudalism is evil using modern standards, but plenty of nobles are merrily LG. Equally if one sees slavery as natural - they are simply inferior and need guidance, restraining, etc to fulfill their natural role, then why not have a lawful or good slaver? A slave-master doesn't have to mistreat their slaves anymore, than a factory worker in Dicken's time had to grind his workers into powder, it might be common and acceptable to do so, but some rise above nonetheless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    Think of how Feist and Wurts portay fictional Kelewan. Slavery is part of the Tsurani culture. But does that make all the Tsurani nobles evil?
    Sorontar
    Okay, I didn't really want to open this can of worms and start an alignment discussion - I believe we had several of these before and the alignment system is indeed quite an inextricable mess.

    However, I wanted to pointed out that we should consider the diffferent cultures and races in Cerilia to establish where and with which conditions and restrictions slavery exists or is accepted - instead of assuming slavery exists wherever evil characters exist.
    "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been."
    - The Three Kingdoms, attributed to Luo Guanzhong, c.1330-c.1400

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