Lida Marnorin

[Sorontar]

Discussion thread for Lida Marnorin. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Sorontar]

I am confused. Is this woman a regent of the Temple of Might, a regent of the Winter Witches or a vassal to one of them? The temples' pages seem to disagree with what is said on Lida's page, which in itself calls her a Winter Witch then keeps talking about the Temple of Might.

[Lee]

I thought the Temple of Might was a merger of the two Vos temples, presumably with Belinik's guys in charge. Over in this country, it's Marnorin that has risen to the top. (that's of the top of my head, no looking it up.)

[Sorontar]

I thought the Temple of Might was a merger of the two Vos temples, presumably with Belinik's guys in charge. Over in this country, it's Marnorin that has risen to the top. (that's of the top of my head, no looking it up.)

Well that doesn't match what is said in the Temple of Might's domain table on the wiki, which doesn't even include Velenoye and has a different regent.

As you said on the discussion about the Temple of Might (http://www.birthright.net/forums/tem...98.html?t=4498) "We need to address the Temple of Might that is also in Velenoye and Melyy." I think that more needs to be included so we can understand whether these are all the one temple with internal politics or divided temples with the same/similar names.

[Rey]

Well that doesn't match what is said in the Temple of Might's domain table on the wiki, which doesn't even include Velenoye and has a different regent.

As you said on the discussion about the Temple of Might (http://www.birthright.net/forums/tem...98.html?t=4498) "We need to address the Temple of Might that is also in Velenoye and Melyy." I think that more needs to be included so we can understand whether these are all the one temple with internal politics or divided temples with the same/similar names.

Temple of Might is a temple holding, Lida Marnorin is a head of the temple, and has holdings both in Velenoye and Melyy. And beyond, maybe.
Winter Witch is a common term used for any priestess of Kriesha.

[Sorontar]

"a head"? There can be only one regent, so is she *the* regent or a vassal to the main regent? Who then is Pankration Pyerun Chernevik (see http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...ple_of_Might)? Is his Temple of Might in (Kozlovnyy the same as her Temple of Might? This is what is confusing me.

And Winter Witch is also used for Kriesha herself (cf. the multiple uses of Ice Lady). The way the BR wiki portrays it, Winter Witches are a temple domain of their own right. Is this so? If so, are they an organization or a temple holding? Are they a vassal to the Temple of Might? And who is their regent, Chesspola Fröschen, and why don't they have anything to do with the areas involving Temple of Might?

Is this just a massive misuse of the same terms in multiple locations to mean totally different and unconnected things?

[Rey]

Don't try to understand the hierarchy of Vosgaard temples as strict like in other parts of Cerilia. I don't expect them to respect it (or each other, for that matter) in any other way but through state churches. They may answer to one appointed regent, but this is really tricky in Vosgaard.
Temple of Might consists of priests that worship both Belinik and Kriesha. They don't really like each other that much, and Lida herself supports the clergy of Kriesha better than Belinik's.

I know, that's a problem. If it helps, I'll go through temple holdings and give you suggestions.

As far as the TotHW is concerned, Lida doesn't have a person above her, she even orchestrates tsara's decisions. The best way for now is to think of the heads of temples in different domains as members of a council and decide who among them has the most influence.

Winter Witches cannot be a temple holding since there is no reference to Winter Witches as holding anywhere in the books, as far as I've seen. Besides it would mean a different church and it would no longer be a Temple of Might. They are neither an organization or vassal, they are one the same, and clergy is considered "equal". As in Vosgaard definition of equal.

Now, let me dig into the books and I'll let you know what I've dug up.

EDIT: Correction. Winter Witches cannot be a temple holding in Vosgaard, but there is a holding in Brechtur. They are not connected to any other temple in Vosgaard, as a variation to the name.
Also, the use of the term "Winter Witches" is a bit confusing. Winter Witches are temple holding in Brechtur, while winter witches are priestesses of Kriesha in Vosgaard.

[Rey]

OK, I did an extensive research and I have some answers. The research was done on 19 domains (14 in Vosgaard, 5 outside; the others have no influence whatsoever) and includes 21 churches/temples with 24 regents.

First, the most influential churches/temples, by holding levels, in Vosgaard, and Vos in other regions (only top five):

One True Church of Vosgaard - 4 domains, 37 levels;
Shrine of the Yellow Fang - 1 domain, 23 levels;
Temple of Might - 3 domains, 19 levels;
Almighty Temple of Belinik - 2 domains, 19 levels;
Belinik Tsarevich - 1 domain, 16 levels.

Second, the most influential regents (by holding levels; only top five):

Gorren Splittongue (23) - Shrine of the Yellow Fang,
Nikoli Brokeslav (16) - Belinik Tsarevich,
High Priest Chernevik (15) - One True Church of Vosgaard,
Ghus Feuerscorn (13) - Yeenoghu's Dark Curse,
Lida Marnorin (12) - Temple of Might.

Third, the most powerful regents (by class levels, only top five):

High Priest Chernevik (MV, Pr11, Belinik, Az, major, 25) - One True Church of Vosgaard;
Lida Marnorin (FV, Pr10, Kriesha, Az, minor, 10) - Temple of Might;
Suvek the White (MV, Pr8, Belinik, Ba, major, 19) - One True Church of Vosgaard;
Karel Rhonskal (F1/2E, Pr8, Lirovka, Vo, minor, 19) - Waning Moon;
Oneg Skuhlzek (Morog, Pr8, Az, minor, 14) - The Last Scream.

So, we can see that One True Church is most widespread, Splittongue of Kal Kalathor holds most temple holding levels, and High Priest Chernevik is the most powerful regent by class level.

Conclusion (from seen and the unseen): High Priest Chernevik is the head of the OTCoV (Suvek the White, Petrov Dlinskar and Sugat Tsorich answer to him), Lida Marnorin is the most powerful in Temple of Might (Leonid Vosken is below her), Gabrend Sontrene (The Great War Priest) of Pipryet (The Magian) is the head of Almighty Temple of Belinik (Vlad Gruskaya in Ust Atka is his inferior). The others are pretty straightforward.
Winter Witches are temple holding in Grabentod, Chesspola is their leader.

One anomaly: Korgul Ironwhip of Kal Kalathor is said to be a temple regent although he is F6/T7 and his Muckrackers are a guild holding also. There are 3 other goblin deities in KK, so I don't know the connection.

One tip: There are 5 temple holding levels in Danigau assigned to The Temple of White Hand (Kriesha) with no mentioned regent. Since there is The White Hand of Kriestal in Vampire's hold (which sounds very similar) I've connected the regent there, one Karyana Darnov (which is misspelled on wiki three times as Karayana), to Danigau's temple holding. It's a stretch, but for the time being let's assume it is not.

I have not been able to find stats for: unknown priest/ess of Sirova in Lutkhovsky, Gustaf Kremler (Black Church of Alenecht, somebody wrote him up on wiki as vampire's awnsheglien priest in count Strahd Von Zarovich entry), Karyana Darnov (The White Hand of Kriestal) and some unknown druid of Irakhan that is presumed to live in the Battle Fans. Maybe I've skipped those in hurry.

The rest of the temples and priest mentioned but with no influence on the research: Vos of Mieres - Pyotr Selenie (2), Vos of the Five Peaks - unknown (6), One True Church in Osoerde, unknown (1), The Great White Church of Karesha, the White Witch (9), and Nadia Vasily (FV, Pr8, Kriesha, Az, major, 31) that roams the Anuire in search of that Vos paladin of Haelyn that is said to be Raven's lieutenant or something.

I hope this covers it.

[AndrewTall]

Danigau is a loong way from the Vampire's Hold, I'd figure that the 'white hand' is a reference to the goddess and so used by two separate domains. In practice running a domain that is spread out andis going to be very tough with medieval technology, when one of those temples (at least) is secret and the other land locked and surrounded by enemies it would be almost impossible.

Of course it is quite possible that the church domain in the vampires hold sent out missionaries who managed to found a church in Danigau under the graf's nose, that would make it even more likely that they would have a similar name, although whether vassalage exists is an interesting question.


The Vosgaard question is tougher. From what has been said about winter I think that any significant geographical distance is going to lead to independence, in fact if not theological terms. I'd see the One True Church of Vosgaard as an overall agree theology - much like 'protestant' - which has several independent churches which are nominally in accord over large doctrinal points, rather than as a single domain, or a main domain with vassals.

I'd see the Winter Witches as a term applied fairly widely to any priestess of Kreisha, even if only one domain apparently uses it as a title for the domain itself. Confusing, maybe, but the way to fix that it to change the Brecht temple probably or make a note in it about the confusion.

[Rey]

Well, yes, Danigau and The Vampire are not so close.
The missionaries could have been sent from Vampire through Kiergard, which is in chaos anyway. From there they could have managed to get by boat to Danigau, if that was the mission. Or perhaps they've went from domain to domain, in secret, to search for a fertile soil for planting Kriesha's seeds, beginning in Dauren and working their way north.

One True Church is present in Yeninskiy, Molochev, Kozlovnyy and the Manticore. The center of the faith could have been somewhere between Molochev, Kal Kalathor, Kozlovnyy, Ust Atka and has spread with the bulk of the most devout (or bloodthirsty) Vos. The northern parts seem more suitable for Temple of Might and worship of Kriesha (Rovninodensk, Velenoye, Melyy).
Ust Atka, the Magian and Rzhlev only give an additional variation of support to Belinik. Winter Witches of Grabentod may be the exiled order from Rzhlev and Grevesmuhl to find their luck in Grabentod, but it seems their power is on the vane.

We can consider OTC a father religion, and all other temples dedicated to Belinik as separate, but descendants of that church. Temple of Might is a fused clergy of Belinik and Kriesha. There are no churches dedicated solely to Kriesha, with the exception of a few minor (White Hand, Winter Witches; which are not in Vosgaard anyway), mostly because the winter witches work in secrecy.

The distiction from the term winter witches and temple Winter Witches is no problem. Problem may be describing them on wiki. Is wiki case sensitive?