Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 53
  1. #1
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0

    Bloodlines and Geneology

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
    Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 7:23 PM


    > Therefore if you have magical parents and a Vorynn bloodline, you
    > are pretty much destined to become a wizard. I suspect that this could
    > lead to interbreeding by wizards, but I don`t know if one could say that
    > most wizards are related. Not yet anyways.

    I count 126 published Anuirean rulers. To calculate the possible
    relatedness of these regents you need two other pieces of information:
    average family size into the next generation and the total number of blooded
    characters. As a confounding factor you`d want some idea of how often a
    ruler invests someone else with a bloodline.

    I`ve been building family trees for European nobles, and have played the
    Pope in role playing games where inheritance was important (historical
    game). What I`ve found remarkable is that with a much larger body of nobles
    (I have 974 total nobles born between 1275 and 1340 taken from a good
    on-line database) it gets really, really had to get beyond 5 or 6 degrees of
    relationship. Even when I look at minor nobles in France and German marcher
    lords in Silesia, or Hungarians, or Swedes. We`re really just playing a
    genelogical version of the Kevin Bacon game.

    Lets say (for argument`s sake) that for every ruler, there are three other
    blooded heads of household in his same generation (within +/- 10 years of
    birth). Lets also say (for argument`s sake) that there is an average of 4
    children in every family who go on to have children of their own
    (geneological dead ends are not relevant unless they invest someone with
    their bloodline).

    There are 16 characters in Anuire who rule domains with a Vorynn bloodline.
    Let`s assume there are another 48 (3x16) heads of house who rule nothing,
    and have a Vo bloodline. In the previous generation there must have been 16
    sets of parents. In the generation before that, 4 sets of parents. In the
    generation before that one set of parents.

    That is unless, the same group of people intermarry with each other every
    generation. We can roughly double the potential set of parents if we assume
    that half of all marriages in which one party has a Vo bloodline produces Vo
    children (the other half would see the other derivation being the higher).

    What is hard to escape is that all blooded characters are somewhere between
    being second cousins and 4th cousins to most other scions, and that they are
    siblings or 1st cousins to some others and 5th or 6th cousins to some
    others.

    The confounding factor is just how much do you suppose bloodlines are
    invested on totally unrelated commoners.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  2. #2
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
    Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 7:23 PM


    > Therefore if you have magical parents and a Vorynn bloodline, you
    > are pretty much destined to become a wizard. I suspect that this could
    > lead to interbreeding by wizards, but I don`t know if one could say that
    > most wizards are related. Not yet anyways.

    I count 126 published Anuirean rulers. To calculate the possible
    relatedness of these regents you need two other pieces of information:
    average family size into the next generation and the total number of blooded
    characters. As a confounding factor you`d want some idea of how often a
    ruler invests someone else with a bloodline.

    I`ve been building family trees for European nobles, and have played the
    Pope in role playing games where inheritance was important (historical
    game). What I`ve found remarkable is that with a much larger body of nobles
    (I have 974 total nobles born between 1275 and 1340 taken from a good
    on-line database) it gets really, really had to get beyond 5 or 6 degrees of
    relationship. Even when I look at minor nobles in France and German marcher
    lords in Silesia, or Hungarians, or Swedes. We`re really just playing a
    genelogical version of the Kevin Bacon game.

    Lets say (for argument`s sake) that for every ruler, there are three other
    blooded heads of household in his same generation (within +/- 10 years of
    birth). Lets also say (for argument`s sake) that there is an average of 4
    children in every family who go on to have children of their own
    (geneological dead ends are not relevant unless they invest someone with
    their bloodline).

    There are 16 characters in Anuire who rule domains with a Vorynn bloodline.
    Let`s assume there are another 48 (3x16) heads of house who rule nothing,
    and have a Vo bloodline. In the previous generation there must have been 16
    sets of parents. In the generation before that, 4 sets of parents. In the
    generation before that one set of parents.

    That is unless, the same group of people intermarry with each other every
    generation. We can roughly double the potential set of parents if we assume
    that half of all marriages in which one party has a Vo bloodline produces Vo
    children (the other half would see the other derivation being the higher).

    What is hard to escape is that all blooded characters are somewhere between
    being second cousins and 4th cousins to most other scions, and that they are
    siblings or 1st cousins to some others and 5th or 6th cousins to some
    others.

    The confounding factor is just how much do you suppose bloodlines are
    invested on totally unrelated commoners.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Canberra, Australia.
    Posts
    408
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Kenneth sez:
    > There are 16 characters in Anuire who rule domains with a
    > Vorynn bloodline. Let`s assume there are another 48 (3x16)
    > heads of house who rule nothing, and have a Vo bloodline. In
    > the previous generation there must have been 16 sets of
    > parents. In the generation before that, 4 sets of parents.
    > In the generation before that one set of parents.

    > That is unless, the same group of people intermarry with each
    > other every generation. We can roughly double the potential
    > set of parents if we assume that half of all marriages in
    > which one party has a Vo bloodline produces Vo children (the
    > other half would see the other derivation being the higher).

    > What is hard to escape is that all blooded characters are
    > somewhere between being second cousins and 4th cousins to
    > most other scions, and that they are siblings or 1st cousins
    > to some others and 5th or 6th cousins to some others.

    > The confounding factor is just how much do you suppose
    > bloodlines are invested on totally unrelated commoners.

    This seems a bit strange to me. Perhaps it is just too late for me to be
    thinking about this sort of thing.
    If we assume the same rates of reproduction then we`d be swimming in
    Vorynn (or any other derivation) scions by now. To me, that suggests
    something is fishy. Perhaps scions of Vorynn don`t reproduce as much
    (highly contrived, I know)? Or perhaps we should have more scions?

    I think it largely depends upon how many scions of Vorynn there
    (probably not as many as some of the derivations since proximity to the
    god`s nature seems to be as important as physical proximity) and how
    many of those lines have been frittered away by unblooded marriages or
    have been usurped out of existence. Then consider how many generations
    there have been since Deismaar, remove a certain % each generation and
    then calculate offspring. Repeat for ages. That should give us an idea
    of how many Vorynn scions we "should" have, according to this method.

    One thing to consider I suppose, is that the larger lines in Anuire will
    tend to be Anduiras ones. These will have also tended to be the higher
    status lines (like the Imperial line). It is possible that most Vorynn
    lines only survive because they are (a) big or (B) haven`t had any
    marriages into the more powerful lines or &copy; were often invested in
    commoners.

    As an aside, how many of the Vorynn scions rule non-source domains?

    I`m not much of an expert on this, but would a study of the lines of
    Anuire since Deismaar be at all useful?
    It seems like a good place to start if we are examining this issue, like
    Mary Poppins says...

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  4. #4
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
    Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:57 AM


    > If we assume the same rates of reproduction then we`d be swimming in
    > Vorynn (or any other derivation) scions by now.

    The only solution to this problem is to assume that blooded people marry
    blooded people and there is no increase in the number of scions.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    474
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
    >Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:57 AM
    >
    >
    >>If we assume the same rates of reproduction then we`d be swimming in
    >>Vorynn (or any other derivation) scions by now.
    >>
    >
    >The only solution to this problem is to assume that blooded people marry
    >blooded people and there is no increase in the number of scions.
    >
    The number of original heirs will diminish slightly through attrition
    over time. By original heirs I mean original bloodlines passed down
    through time by investiture. This factor could account for a loss of as
    much as 50% after 500 years.

    Of bloodlines that are created procreation, these tend to become weaker
    - more diluted. Thi is a good thing, especially from a regent`s point of
    view. As ruler, you don`t want your children to have a higher bloodline
    than you do - in fact your heir will get your exact bloodline so that`s
    not going to be an issue. But you will want them to have some bloodline,
    so the dilution is a benefit in this way. There`s absolutely no point
    whatsoever to marrying someone with a stronger or stronger bloodline -
    except for political gain of course, or love or whatever (no point from
    a purely bloodline point of view).

    I use a method of determining children`s bloodlines that tends to create
    bloodline scores that are the average of the parents, and a derivation
    that tends to be that of the dominant parent -- but not always. This
    means that strong bloodlines are still (on average) diluted, but the
    possibility exists for a strong bloodline to emerge from another line
    (or lines). Such "favoured" children may have a stronger bloodline than
    either parent, and or even (though highly unlikely) a different
    derivation. If such a child were made heir, this new bloodline would be
    extinguished -- if not made heir, then the domain may see a struggle for
    ownership! In many places the child would have a strong claim for the
    domain - and his bloodline is more powerful than the current holder
    and/or the designated heir!

    The two factor, i.e. (i) loss through attrition, and (ii) occasional new
    bloodlines - create a fairly static situation in the number of
    bloodlines above a certain value -- although almost everyone could end
    up with a few points of bloodline, thi is essentially unblooded unless
    they happen to get a blood ability (which would be minor at best). So
    minor and better bloodlines are still as rare as they have ever been.

    >
    >
    >Kenneth Gauck
    >kgauck@mchsi.com
    >
    >************************************************* ***************************
    >The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    >with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    >

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    BR mailing list
    Posts
    1,562
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    One interesting result of the normal bloodine rules is that later children
    will tend to have a slightly higher bloodline, because regents will use
    Regency Points to enhance their own bloodline over time. So the firstborn
    child sometimes has the lowest bloodline among a group of siblings.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    474
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Carl Cramér wrote:

    >One interesting result of the normal bloodine rules is that later children
    >will tend to have a slightly higher bloodline, because regents will use
    >Regency Points to enhance their own bloodline over time. So the firstborn
    >child sometimes has the lowest bloodline among a group of siblings.
    >
    True, but if the firstborn is to be the heir this does not matter as
    they get the full bloodline later.



    IMO, the standard bloodline rules for progeny are a bit mechanical. They
    lead to highly predictable results. This can be quite undesirable.

    If I was Darien Avan, my first choice would be to adopt. Children would
    be a threat. Children from a blooded mother far more so. The minimum
    bloodline under standard rules would be An35. Kings are usually
    "required" to provide as many possible heirs as they can - although in a
    fantasy setting the survival of royal children is probably higher than
    historically. (Ever notice that, in all history - there have been so
    very very few sets of twins born to ruling houses ?) Anyway, Avan
    wouldn`t want too many An35+ scions with any ambition wandering around
    -- and he can only hand out one An70 bloodline - and that`s in the event
    of death, something he`ll be trying to put off as long as possible. Even
    a blooded wife with a score of 20 would produce children with a score of 45!

    I prefer to randomise them just a little bit.
    e.g. Khorien is An33 and Mierelen is Ba41. Strictly speaking their
    progeny would be Ba37. Considering that it`s likely that the parent will
    want to pass the bloodline on intact (complete with powers etc), one
    child will inherit a Ba41, and another a An33. By the time you have
    three children you have increased the overall amount of bloodline from
    the previous generation.

    I do two things, (1) I assume that any bloodline that is not true has
    another derivation which is submissive, so that Khorien has (rolling
    d100 against table 11)(79=Ma), and for strength (1d100-1)*stronger
    derivation = (.83*33=26) so Ma26 is a secondary derivation. Similarly
    for Mierelen Br34. This can be repeated for all derivations if one likes
    with each derivation getting weaker and weaker. And (2), the combined
    total for the parent for each derivation is the potential in that
    derivation.

    Khorien An33, Ma26, Re23, Vo10
    Mierelen Ba41, Br34, Re27

    Child Potential is Re23+27=50, Ba41+0, Br34+0, An33+0, Ma26+0, Vo10+0
    This child`s potential is greatest in Reynir, even though this is not
    dominant in either parent.

    Child #1 rolls d100 for each, Re.12*50=6, Ba.01*41=1, Br.28*34=9,
    Ma.35*26=9,
    which is pretty poos rolling but hey Br9 rules - (drown this one)

    Child #2 rolls .53*50=Re26, .67*41=Ba27, .40*34=? (don`t need to roll
    further)
    for a Ba 27 (this is not bad - strongest blood rules)

    (still haven`t rolled a Reynir blooded child though)

    Child #3 rolls (.54*50=Re27)(.17*41=?)(.78*34=Br26)(.32*33=?) Aha! Re27

    Child #4 rolls (.36*50=Re18), .30*41=, .55*34=, .63*33=An20 that`ll do
    pig ... An20

    Child #5 rolls .27*50=, .80*41=Ba32, .26, .11 .... Ba 32

    Child #6 rolls .70*50 = Re35, .38*..... (no point continuing) Re35

    So 6 children all different from the same 2 parents
    Br9, Ba27, Re27, An20, Ba32, Re35 -- this averages out as a score of 25
    and 4 of the 6 have derivations the same as a parent.
    Note that two of them can still inherit from their parents - An33 and
    Ba41 -which changes the figures to an average of 31 (substituting the
    first two) and 5 from 6 having the same derivation.

    Of course Avan is still in trouble. It would be better to have no rules
    for children to be born with bloodlines at all, or at least to have such
    rules that are independent of the bloodlines of parents. i.e. Any child,
    anywhere, might get a bloodline - the child of blooded parents has no
    greater chance than any other.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    BR mailing list
    Posts
    1,562
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>

    >If I was Darien Avan, my first choice would be to adopt. Children would be
    >a threat. Children from a blooded mother far more so.
    <snip>
    >Anyway, Avan wouldn`t want too many An35+ scions with any ambition
    >wandering around

    This is the kind of paranoid style of play (along with the "when the cat`s
    away the mice will play" artificial problems that are used /because/ the
    regent goes off) that I reject for Birthright.

    Why would having a bloodline make anyone more likely be be a patricide than
    any other wealthy or potentially powerful heir? Does having a bloodline
    undermine the normal familial traits of characters?

    People of all walks of life and situations have been known to kill family
    members. If the huge bulk of people don`t fear their children, regents
    shouldn`t either.

    I let players run their own heir. Not surprisingly, there have been no
    patricides. Parents and children have not always gotten along perfectly
    (some nice role play there -salute!) but it generally revolves around
    associates, risk-taking behavior, and unwillingness to be the kind of person
    the parent wants. The young characters are out there for experience and
    adventure. The parent characters often want them to be a dutiful
    lieutenant.

    Hieronymus Agricola
    wizard, alchemist, bibliophile

    __________________________________________________ _______________
    Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    474
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Hieronymus Agricola wrote:

    > Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
    >
    >> If I was Darien Avan, my first choice would be to adopt. Children
    >> would be
    >> a threat. Children from a blooded mother far more so.
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >> Anyway, Avan wouldn`t want too many An35+ scions with any ambition
    >> wandering around
    >
    >
    > This is the kind of paranoid style of play (along with the "when the
    > cat`s
    > away the mice will play" artificial problems that are used /because/ the
    > regent goes off) that I reject for Birthright.
    >
    > Why would having a bloodline make anyone more likely be be a patricide
    > than
    > any other wealthy or potentially powerful heir? Does having a bloodline
    > undermine the normal familial traits of characters?

    No, it just makes them more likely to act on them. (assuming you mean
    the well-documented and well-founded traits of patricide and regicide as
    practised by royal families throughout history and fiction).

    >
    >
    > People of all walks of life and situations have been known to kill family
    > members. If the huge bulk of people don`t fear their children, regents
    > shouldn`t either.
    >
    > I let players run their own heir. Not surprisingly, there have been no
    > patricides. Parents and children have not always gotten along perfectly
    > (some nice role play there -salute!) but it generally revolves around
    > associates, risk-taking behavior, and unwillingness to be the kind of
    > person
    > the parent wants. The young characters are out there for experience and
    > adventure. The parent characters often want them to be a dutiful
    > lieutenant.

    You aren`t a parent in real-life are you ? I`d gladly rent you a 14 year
    old for a few years (say 10 or so).

    A prince (what I mean is an immediate relative of a ruling regent), with
    a strong bloodline should have a strong desire to fulfil that bloodline.
    I`m assuming that scions feel this drive/need/whatever more keenly than
    those without a bloodline. The longer this want/need goes unfulfilled
    the more frustrated the scion will be. Now I am generalizing and of
    course there will be the dutiful exceptions to the rule. In the case of
    the "heir", their bloodline will eventually (yeah and who wants to wait
    til they are 70 ?) be extinguished and replaced by their donor of
    course, and hopefully they`ll gain the domain as well. But what of the
    second in line, or the third, etc - what are their prospects ? They have
    as strong a bloodline as many out there in the world including their
    siblings - why shouldn`t they share ? It is naive to think that they
    would instantly look further afield than their parents` domain. Even if
    they did, you`d have the children of that domain`s regent looking at
    yours - ad infinitum. Without wholesale slaughter of scions, the
    competition for domains boils down to fracticde, regicide, and patricide
    in copious quantities.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    BR mailing list
    Posts
    1,562
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>

    >>Why would having a bloodline make anyone more likely be be a patricide
    >>than any other wealthy or potentially powerful heir? Does having a
    >>bloodline undermine the normal familial traits of characters?
    >
    >No, it just makes them more likely to act on them. (assuming you mean the
    >well-documented and well-founded traits of patricide and regicide as
    >practised by royal families throughout history and
    >fiction).

    Why would a bloodline have this effect, in your campaign of course? In my
    campaign bloodlines subtly draw the personality towards those of the
    original gods, who seem like pretty decent dieties, actually.

    Having evidence of patricide in history or literature is not the same thing
    as evidence for a reasonable fear among blooded parents. First you would
    need to consider the evidence of all the royal non-patricides and compare
    that to the expected norm in a given population. Given that royals
    (supposedly at each other`s throats) seemed to have normal family lives (in
    terms of attachment), I am not inclined to favor such bloodiminedness.

    >>Parents and children have not always gotten along perfectly but it
    >>generally revolves around associates,
    >>risk-taking behavior, and unwillingness to be the kind of person the
    >>parent wants.
    >
    >You aren`t a parent in real-life are you ? I`d gladly rent you a 14 year
    >old for a few years (say 10 or so).

    Curiously I do have a 14 yr old (and another younger child). Even more
    curiously, I am pretty sure they are not planing to kill me. Even still
    more curiously our biggest concerns are about their associates, their risk
    taking behavior, and their shirking or responsibilities. Hmmm, sounds like
    those PC heirs.

    >A prince (what I mean is an immediate relative of a ruling regent), with a
    >strong bloodline should have a strong desire to fulfil that bloodline. I`m
    >assuming that scions feel this drive/need/whatever more keenly than those
    >without a bloodline. The longer this want/need goes unfulfilled
    >the more frustrated the scion will be.

    I`m glad you have some kind of psycological explanation of all of this, but
    since I`m not playing BR to indulge my democratic animus towards monarchy, I
    have no such psychology of bloodlines. Indeed, I suppose it has the
    opposite effect, creating a bond between the blooded character and the good
    of the land, as the spirit of the old god would have interpreted it. The
    description you have offered I would warrent only for the derivation of
    Azrai.

    BTW, in Vosgaard, no one lives to be 70.

    >But what of the second in line, or the third, etc - what are their
    >prospects? They have as strong a bloodline as many out there in the world
    >including their siblings - why shouldn`t they share?

    Monarchs and nobles subordinate themselves to the good of the state, even to
    the point of sacrifice of their lives. This is the blood tax which exempted
    nobles from fiscal taxes. You don`t need a title to give your selve in
    service to the land, nobless oblige. You can serve your realm in a variety
    of ways, and these seconds and thirds, who want to serve, who feel the pull
    of their bloodline will act as able helpers of the crown, laying down their
    lives if required, just as the gods laid down their lives as Deismaar.

    Hieronymus Agricola
    wizard, alchemist, bibliophile

    __________________________________________________ _______________
    Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.