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Thread: Bloodlines and Geneology
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05-06-2002, 03:37 AM #1
Bloodlines and Geneology
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 7:23 PM
> Therefore if you have magical parents and a Vorynn bloodline, you
> are pretty much destined to become a wizard. I suspect that this could
> lead to interbreeding by wizards, but I don`t know if one could say that
> most wizards are related. Not yet anyways.
I count 126 published Anuirean rulers. To calculate the possible
relatedness of these regents you need two other pieces of information:
average family size into the next generation and the total number of blooded
characters. As a confounding factor you`d want some idea of how often a
ruler invests someone else with a bloodline.
I`ve been building family trees for European nobles, and have played the
Pope in role playing games where inheritance was important (historical
game). What I`ve found remarkable is that with a much larger body of nobles
(I have 974 total nobles born between 1275 and 1340 taken from a good
on-line database) it gets really, really had to get beyond 5 or 6 degrees of
relationship. Even when I look at minor nobles in France and German marcher
lords in Silesia, or Hungarians, or Swedes. We`re really just playing a
genelogical version of the Kevin Bacon game.
Lets say (for argument`s sake) that for every ruler, there are three other
blooded heads of household in his same generation (within +/- 10 years of
birth). Lets also say (for argument`s sake) that there is an average of 4
children in every family who go on to have children of their own
(geneological dead ends are not relevant unless they invest someone with
their bloodline).
There are 16 characters in Anuire who rule domains with a Vorynn bloodline.
Let`s assume there are another 48 (3x16) heads of house who rule nothing,
and have a Vo bloodline. In the previous generation there must have been 16
sets of parents. In the generation before that, 4 sets of parents. In the
generation before that one set of parents.
That is unless, the same group of people intermarry with each other every
generation. We can roughly double the potential set of parents if we assume
that half of all marriages in which one party has a Vo bloodline produces Vo
children (the other half would see the other derivation being the higher).
What is hard to escape is that all blooded characters are somewhere between
being second cousins and 4th cousins to most other scions, and that they are
siblings or 1st cousins to some others and 5th or 6th cousins to some
others.
The confounding factor is just how much do you suppose bloodlines are
invested on totally unrelated commoners.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-06-2002, 03:37 AM #2
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 7:23 PM
> Therefore if you have magical parents and a Vorynn bloodline, you
> are pretty much destined to become a wizard. I suspect that this could
> lead to interbreeding by wizards, but I don`t know if one could say that
> most wizards are related. Not yet anyways.
I count 126 published Anuirean rulers. To calculate the possible
relatedness of these regents you need two other pieces of information:
average family size into the next generation and the total number of blooded
characters. As a confounding factor you`d want some idea of how often a
ruler invests someone else with a bloodline.
I`ve been building family trees for European nobles, and have played the
Pope in role playing games where inheritance was important (historical
game). What I`ve found remarkable is that with a much larger body of nobles
(I have 974 total nobles born between 1275 and 1340 taken from a good
on-line database) it gets really, really had to get beyond 5 or 6 degrees of
relationship. Even when I look at minor nobles in France and German marcher
lords in Silesia, or Hungarians, or Swedes. We`re really just playing a
genelogical version of the Kevin Bacon game.
Lets say (for argument`s sake) that for every ruler, there are three other
blooded heads of household in his same generation (within +/- 10 years of
birth). Lets also say (for argument`s sake) that there is an average of 4
children in every family who go on to have children of their own
(geneological dead ends are not relevant unless they invest someone with
their bloodline).
There are 16 characters in Anuire who rule domains with a Vorynn bloodline.
Let`s assume there are another 48 (3x16) heads of house who rule nothing,
and have a Vo bloodline. In the previous generation there must have been 16
sets of parents. In the generation before that, 4 sets of parents. In the
generation before that one set of parents.
That is unless, the same group of people intermarry with each other every
generation. We can roughly double the potential set of parents if we assume
that half of all marriages in which one party has a Vo bloodline produces Vo
children (the other half would see the other derivation being the higher).
What is hard to escape is that all blooded characters are somewhere between
being second cousins and 4th cousins to most other scions, and that they are
siblings or 1st cousins to some others and 5th or 6th cousins to some
others.
The confounding factor is just how much do you suppose bloodlines are
invested on totally unrelated commoners.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-06-2002, 03:59 PM #3
Kenneth sez:
> There are 16 characters in Anuire who rule domains with a
> Vorynn bloodline. Let`s assume there are another 48 (3x16)
> heads of house who rule nothing, and have a Vo bloodline. In
> the previous generation there must have been 16 sets of
> parents. In the generation before that, 4 sets of parents.
> In the generation before that one set of parents.
> That is unless, the same group of people intermarry with each
> other every generation. We can roughly double the potential
> set of parents if we assume that half of all marriages in
> which one party has a Vo bloodline produces Vo children (the
> other half would see the other derivation being the higher).
> What is hard to escape is that all blooded characters are
> somewhere between being second cousins and 4th cousins to
> most other scions, and that they are siblings or 1st cousins
> to some others and 5th or 6th cousins to some others.
> The confounding factor is just how much do you suppose
> bloodlines are invested on totally unrelated commoners.
This seems a bit strange to me. Perhaps it is just too late for me to be
thinking about this sort of thing.
If we assume the same rates of reproduction then we`d be swimming in
Vorynn (or any other derivation) scions by now. To me, that suggests
something is fishy. Perhaps scions of Vorynn don`t reproduce as much
(highly contrived, I know)? Or perhaps we should have more scions?
I think it largely depends upon how many scions of Vorynn there
(probably not as many as some of the derivations since proximity to the
god`s nature seems to be as important as physical proximity) and how
many of those lines have been frittered away by unblooded marriages or
have been usurped out of existence. Then consider how many generations
there have been since Deismaar, remove a certain % each generation and
then calculate offspring. Repeat for ages. That should give us an idea
of how many Vorynn scions we "should" have, according to this method.
One thing to consider I suppose, is that the larger lines in Anuire will
tend to be Anduiras ones. These will have also tended to be the higher
status lines (like the Imperial line). It is possible that most Vorynn
lines only survive because they are (a) big or (B) haven`t had any
marriages into the more powerful lines or © were often invested in
commoners.
As an aside, how many of the Vorynn scions rule non-source domains?
I`m not much of an expert on this, but would a study of the lines of
Anuire since Deismaar be at all useful?
It seems like a good place to start if we are examining this issue, like
Mary Poppins says...
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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05-06-2002, 11:38 PM #4
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:57 AM
> If we assume the same rates of reproduction then we`d be swimming in
> Vorynn (or any other derivation) scions by now.
The only solution to this problem is to assume that blooded people marry
blooded people and there is no increase in the number of scions.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-07-2002, 03:29 AM #5
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Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
>Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:57 AM
>
>
>>If we assume the same rates of reproduction then we`d be swimming in
>>Vorynn (or any other derivation) scions by now.
>>
>
>The only solution to this problem is to assume that blooded people marry
>blooded people and there is no increase in the number of scions.
>
The number of original heirs will diminish slightly through attrition
over time. By original heirs I mean original bloodlines passed down
through time by investiture. This factor could account for a loss of as
much as 50% after 500 years.
Of bloodlines that are created procreation, these tend to become weaker
- more diluted. Thi is a good thing, especially from a regent`s point of
view. As ruler, you don`t want your children to have a higher bloodline
than you do - in fact your heir will get your exact bloodline so that`s
not going to be an issue. But you will want them to have some bloodline,
so the dilution is a benefit in this way. There`s absolutely no point
whatsoever to marrying someone with a stronger or stronger bloodline -
except for political gain of course, or love or whatever (no point from
a purely bloodline point of view).
I use a method of determining children`s bloodlines that tends to create
bloodline scores that are the average of the parents, and a derivation
that tends to be that of the dominant parent -- but not always. This
means that strong bloodlines are still (on average) diluted, but the
possibility exists for a strong bloodline to emerge from another line
(or lines). Such "favoured" children may have a stronger bloodline than
either parent, and or even (though highly unlikely) a different
derivation. If such a child were made heir, this new bloodline would be
extinguished -- if not made heir, then the domain may see a struggle for
ownership! In many places the child would have a strong claim for the
domain - and his bloodline is more powerful than the current holder
and/or the designated heir!
The two factor, i.e. (i) loss through attrition, and (ii) occasional new
bloodlines - create a fairly static situation in the number of
bloodlines above a certain value -- although almost everyone could end
up with a few points of bloodline, thi is essentially unblooded unless
they happen to get a blood ability (which would be minor at best). So
minor and better bloodlines are still as rare as they have ever been.
>
>
>Kenneth Gauck
>kgauck@mchsi.com
>
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05-07-2002, 08:26 AM #6
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One interesting result of the normal bloodine rules is that later children
will tend to have a slightly higher bloodline, because regents will use
Regency Points to enhance their own bloodline over time. So the firstborn
child sometimes has the lowest bloodline among a group of siblings.
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05-07-2002, 11:13 PM #7
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Carl Cramér wrote:
>One interesting result of the normal bloodine rules is that later children
>will tend to have a slightly higher bloodline, because regents will use
>Regency Points to enhance their own bloodline over time. So the firstborn
>child sometimes has the lowest bloodline among a group of siblings.
>
True, but if the firstborn is to be the heir this does not matter as
they get the full bloodline later.
IMO, the standard bloodline rules for progeny are a bit mechanical. They
lead to highly predictable results. This can be quite undesirable.
If I was Darien Avan, my first choice would be to adopt. Children would
be a threat. Children from a blooded mother far more so. The minimum
bloodline under standard rules would be An35. Kings are usually
"required" to provide as many possible heirs as they can - although in a
fantasy setting the survival of royal children is probably higher than
historically. (Ever notice that, in all history - there have been so
very very few sets of twins born to ruling houses ?) Anyway, Avan
wouldn`t want too many An35+ scions with any ambition wandering around
-- and he can only hand out one An70 bloodline - and that`s in the event
of death, something he`ll be trying to put off as long as possible. Even
a blooded wife with a score of 20 would produce children with a score of 45!
I prefer to randomise them just a little bit.
e.g. Khorien is An33 and Mierelen is Ba41. Strictly speaking their
progeny would be Ba37. Considering that it`s likely that the parent will
want to pass the bloodline on intact (complete with powers etc), one
child will inherit a Ba41, and another a An33. By the time you have
three children you have increased the overall amount of bloodline from
the previous generation.
I do two things, (1) I assume that any bloodline that is not true has
another derivation which is submissive, so that Khorien has (rolling
d100 against table 11)(79=Ma), and for strength (1d100-1)*stronger
derivation = (.83*33=26) so Ma26 is a secondary derivation. Similarly
for Mierelen Br34. This can be repeated for all derivations if one likes
with each derivation getting weaker and weaker. And (2), the combined
total for the parent for each derivation is the potential in that
derivation.
Khorien An33, Ma26, Re23, Vo10
Mierelen Ba41, Br34, Re27
Child Potential is Re23+27=50, Ba41+0, Br34+0, An33+0, Ma26+0, Vo10+0
This child`s potential is greatest in Reynir, even though this is not
dominant in either parent.
Child #1 rolls d100 for each, Re.12*50=6, Ba.01*41=1, Br.28*34=9,
Ma.35*26=9,
which is pretty poos rolling but hey Br9 rules - (drown this one)
Child #2 rolls .53*50=Re26, .67*41=Ba27, .40*34=? (don`t need to roll
further)
for a Ba 27 (this is not bad - strongest blood rules)
(still haven`t rolled a Reynir blooded child though)
Child #3 rolls (.54*50=Re27)(.17*41=?)(.78*34=Br26)(.32*33=?) Aha! Re27
Child #4 rolls (.36*50=Re18), .30*41=, .55*34=, .63*33=An20 that`ll do
pig ... An20
Child #5 rolls .27*50=, .80*41=Ba32, .26, .11 .... Ba 32
Child #6 rolls .70*50 = Re35, .38*..... (no point continuing) Re35
So 6 children all different from the same 2 parents
Br9, Ba27, Re27, An20, Ba32, Re35 -- this averages out as a score of 25
and 4 of the 6 have derivations the same as a parent.
Note that two of them can still inherit from their parents - An33 and
Ba41 -which changes the figures to an average of 31 (substituting the
first two) and 5 from 6 having the same derivation.
Of course Avan is still in trouble. It would be better to have no rules
for children to be born with bloodlines at all, or at least to have such
rules that are independent of the bloodlines of parents. i.e. Any child,
anywhere, might get a bloodline - the child of blooded parents has no
greater chance than any other.
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05-08-2002, 03:47 AM #8
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Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
>If I was Darien Avan, my first choice would be to adopt. Children would be
>a threat. Children from a blooded mother far more so.
<snip>
>Anyway, Avan wouldn`t want too many An35+ scions with any ambition
>wandering around
This is the kind of paranoid style of play (along with the "when the cat`s
away the mice will play" artificial problems that are used /because/ the
regent goes off) that I reject for Birthright.
Why would having a bloodline make anyone more likely be be a patricide than
any other wealthy or potentially powerful heir? Does having a bloodline
undermine the normal familial traits of characters?
People of all walks of life and situations have been known to kill family
members. If the huge bulk of people don`t fear their children, regents
shouldn`t either.
I let players run their own heir. Not surprisingly, there have been no
patricides. Parents and children have not always gotten along perfectly
(some nice role play there -salute!) but it generally revolves around
associates, risk-taking behavior, and unwillingness to be the kind of person
the parent wants. The young characters are out there for experience and
adventure. The parent characters often want them to be a dutiful
lieutenant.
Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, bibliophile
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05-08-2002, 03:47 AM #9
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Hieronymus Agricola wrote:
> Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
>
>> If I was Darien Avan, my first choice would be to adopt. Children
>> would be
>> a threat. Children from a blooded mother far more so.
>
> <snip>
>
>> Anyway, Avan wouldn`t want too many An35+ scions with any ambition
>> wandering around
>
>
> This is the kind of paranoid style of play (along with the "when the
> cat`s
> away the mice will play" artificial problems that are used /because/ the
> regent goes off) that I reject for Birthright.
>
> Why would having a bloodline make anyone more likely be be a patricide
> than
> any other wealthy or potentially powerful heir? Does having a bloodline
> undermine the normal familial traits of characters?
No, it just makes them more likely to act on them. (assuming you mean
the well-documented and well-founded traits of patricide and regicide as
practised by royal families throughout history and fiction).
>
>
> People of all walks of life and situations have been known to kill family
> members. If the huge bulk of people don`t fear their children, regents
> shouldn`t either.
>
> I let players run their own heir. Not surprisingly, there have been no
> patricides. Parents and children have not always gotten along perfectly
> (some nice role play there -salute!) but it generally revolves around
> associates, risk-taking behavior, and unwillingness to be the kind of
> person
> the parent wants. The young characters are out there for experience and
> adventure. The parent characters often want them to be a dutiful
> lieutenant.
You aren`t a parent in real-life are you ? I`d gladly rent you a 14 year
old for a few years (say 10 or so).
A prince (what I mean is an immediate relative of a ruling regent), with
a strong bloodline should have a strong desire to fulfil that bloodline.
I`m assuming that scions feel this drive/need/whatever more keenly than
those without a bloodline. The longer this want/need goes unfulfilled
the more frustrated the scion will be. Now I am generalizing and of
course there will be the dutiful exceptions to the rule. In the case of
the "heir", their bloodline will eventually (yeah and who wants to wait
til they are 70 ?) be extinguished and replaced by their donor of
course, and hopefully they`ll gain the domain as well. But what of the
second in line, or the third, etc - what are their prospects ? They have
as strong a bloodline as many out there in the world including their
siblings - why shouldn`t they share ? It is naive to think that they
would instantly look further afield than their parents` domain. Even if
they did, you`d have the children of that domain`s regent looking at
yours - ad infinitum. Without wholesale slaughter of scions, the
competition for domains boils down to fracticde, regicide, and patricide
in copious quantities.
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05-08-2002, 05:08 AM #10
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Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
>>Why would having a bloodline make anyone more likely be be a patricide
>>than any other wealthy or potentially powerful heir? Does having a
>>bloodline undermine the normal familial traits of characters?
>
>No, it just makes them more likely to act on them. (assuming you mean the
>well-documented and well-founded traits of patricide and regicide as
>practised by royal families throughout history and
>fiction).
Why would a bloodline have this effect, in your campaign of course? In my
campaign bloodlines subtly draw the personality towards those of the
original gods, who seem like pretty decent dieties, actually.
Having evidence of patricide in history or literature is not the same thing
as evidence for a reasonable fear among blooded parents. First you would
need to consider the evidence of all the royal non-patricides and compare
that to the expected norm in a given population. Given that royals
(supposedly at each other`s throats) seemed to have normal family lives (in
terms of attachment), I am not inclined to favor such bloodiminedness.
>>Parents and children have not always gotten along perfectly but it
>>generally revolves around associates,
>>risk-taking behavior, and unwillingness to be the kind of person the
>>parent wants.
>
>You aren`t a parent in real-life are you ? I`d gladly rent you a 14 year
>old for a few years (say 10 or so).
Curiously I do have a 14 yr old (and another younger child). Even more
curiously, I am pretty sure they are not planing to kill me. Even still
more curiously our biggest concerns are about their associates, their risk
taking behavior, and their shirking or responsibilities. Hmmm, sounds like
those PC heirs.
>A prince (what I mean is an immediate relative of a ruling regent), with a
>strong bloodline should have a strong desire to fulfil that bloodline. I`m
>assuming that scions feel this drive/need/whatever more keenly than those
>without a bloodline. The longer this want/need goes unfulfilled
>the more frustrated the scion will be.
I`m glad you have some kind of psycological explanation of all of this, but
since I`m not playing BR to indulge my democratic animus towards monarchy, I
have no such psychology of bloodlines. Indeed, I suppose it has the
opposite effect, creating a bond between the blooded character and the good
of the land, as the spirit of the old god would have interpreted it. The
description you have offered I would warrent only for the derivation of
Azrai.
BTW, in Vosgaard, no one lives to be 70.
>But what of the second in line, or the third, etc - what are their
>prospects? They have as strong a bloodline as many out there in the world
>including their siblings - why shouldn`t they share?
Monarchs and nobles subordinate themselves to the good of the state, even to
the point of sacrifice of their lives. This is the blood tax which exempted
nobles from fiscal taxes. You don`t need a title to give your selve in
service to the land, nobless oblige. You can serve your realm in a variety
of ways, and these seconds and thirds, who want to serve, who feel the pull
of their bloodline will act as able helpers of the crown, laying down their
lives if required, just as the gods laid down their lives as Deismaar.
Hieronymus Agricola
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