Background of Cerilian dragons

[Sorontar]

I am copying Gary's email from the mailing list because 1) he wants it to get here and 2) he makes very important points.
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I don't know if this is getting through to the message boards at the
moment, but I'll chime in anyway:

It's been a long time, so my memory could be faulty, but I seem to
remember one of the original BR authors stating the opinion that a
dragon could not be blooded simply by merit of the fact that
bloodline represents such a small amount of power comparable to that
of a dragon. It would be a drop in the ocean, as it were. If I
recall correctly, there was even mention of a dragon at Deismaar
being struck by the waves of power from the explosion of the gods and
being knocked around by that energy, but otherwise unaffected by that power.

From what I can tell, that means that Cerilian dragons are living
embodiments of mebhaighl. A bloodline, which allows a regent to
gather, store and spend that energy is redundant. It'd be like
squirted water back up into the sky from a hose during a
rainstorm. Even if you used a really powerful hose, it's still kind
of pointless.

That's not to say a Cerilian dragon couldn't control sources (or any
holding, really) and cast realm spells. Assuming they have sources,
they have the two other basic prerequisites; magical ability, and the
power of the land. In fact, given that the bones of dead dragons
have been used as the focus for a source holding's physical
manifestation, I can't help but think that a dragon might in and of
itself constitute a source holding, so actually controlling a source
might be unnecessary except for maybe the most powerful realm
spells--and maybe not even then.

As for what should happen when a dragon is slain, there are plenty of
examples from myth and fantasy fiction of heroes gaining powers from
consuming various body parts of a dragon. I would, however, caution
against equating that with bloodtheft. Giving a hero an actual
bloodline or an increase to his bloodline score for slaying a dragon
is a rather different thing. Rather, I think a hero might gain a
power that would otherwise look like a blood ability (it might even
simply a blood ability taken right from the BR materials) but that
doesn't mean he'd gain the ability to cast realm spells, true magic,
control a domain or himself be the victim of bloodtheft. Dragons
aren't gods, so killing one and consuming it shouldn't work the same
way bloodline does.

Gary

[Arjan]

my opinion is that the dragons are still "pure" creatures.. been there way before it all happened.. will be there long after.

perhaps even greater then the bloodlines?

fot example the rumor about raizhadik.. why would the gorgon have her captured and spared her life if she would have a bloodline?

is she a vessel to something greater? perhaps a way to tapping into natural sources without having a bloodline?

[Sorontar]

Hmmm.... thinking.

Let's say a dragon can access the wild mebhaighl in a province directly and thus cast realm level spells. Let's say that it *cannot* access sources though as they are not wild magic, they are controlled and gathered.

So if UnknownProvince (3/4) has a medium civilisation and a level 2 source holding controlled by a regent, then that leaves 2 source potential for the dragon to use. If the dragon wanted to grow in magical capabilities, it could 1) destroy the civilisation and increase the province's available source potential or 2) eliminate the source regent/s and release the source holding/s back into the wild.

Just an idea.

Sorontar

[Arjan]

Hmmm.... thinking.

Let's say a dragon can access the wild mebhaighl in a province directly and thus cast realm level spells. Let's say that it *cannot* access sources though as they are not wild magic, they are controlled and gathered.

So if UnknownProvince (3/4) has a medium civilisation and a level 2 source holding controlled by a regent, then that leaves 2 source potential for the dragon to use. If the dragon wanted to grow in magical capabilities, it could 1) destroy the civilisation and increase the province's available source potential or 2) eliminate the source regent/s and release the source holding/s back into the wild.

Just an idea.

Sorontar

why would they do that? why risk the hunt for them?

first, non of the dragons have showed themselves for many years, only to be rumored to be alive.
they predate the dwarves and the elves..
and then you got Caerbhaghlien (pg 24 BoM) "Ancient texts and legends speak of a handful of of sources in Cerilia that no wizard can hold as his own, this sources are called Caerbhaghlien by the elves, are said to be places of such great enchantment that sometimes even non-wizards passing near their manifestations can feel the pull of the mebhaighl.
because no one has ever been able to pinpoint the location on one of these sources on a map, many doubt wether they truly exists... etc"

IMO, those will be the sources dragons will use...

[epicsoul]

From a mechanics perspective, it's a very bad idea to have a dragon with a bloodline. While a bloodline is only a "drop in the ocean" for a dragon in terms of power...

it really, really, isn't.

Consider; a dragon, with it's lifespan and near-invulnerability. Dragons are the few creatures who could give the Gorgon a run for his money. And because they're not interested in ruling... they only need to grab perhaps the Source holding in the province they inhabit.

Then... they go to sleep. For a couple hundred years. Their source ... 6, we'll say (in a mountainous province, low population). Their pathetic bloodline of ... 10 to start, we'll say. They gain 6 rp. No wizard of sanity challenges their source holding - because it's a freakin' dragon, after all. So, another turn passes. then another, and another. Oh, look. They're now blood strength 11.

80 years pass. They've now got one of the higher bloodline strengths in the game.

A century passes. They now rival the Gorgon for power. We'll assume they max out at a bloodline strength equal to Gorgie. We'll even assume that they only have a minor bloodline - but, at almost 100 bloodline strength, they have basically EVERY minor ability allowed for that bloodline. If we give them a major or greater bloodline... it's REALLY ugly.

Okay... so, it's naive to assume that no one will challenge for the source rating, and that no silly regent might try and rule the province. This, of course, wakes the dragon. They devastate said regent. Claim some loot. Go back to sleep.

While it may be a bit interesting to run it that way (why DO dragons get woken prematurely? - makes for an interesting adventure, I suppose), the fact is, giving dragons bloodlines is unwise. At least the Gorgon has constantly had to struggle for his regency over the last millenium, and suffered defeats as well as victories. A dragon could sleep through much of that, because... again, what wizard is going to challenge a dragon for their one source holding? Better be pretty high level, and is the risk worth the gain? There are far easier targets to gain source holdings than challenging a dragon, who as an engine of destruction, is nearly unparalleled in BR.

There was a blooded dragon published in a dragon magazine, I believe. Didn't see it in the wiki from a cursory search. Maybe it's in the Vos domain book? Can't remember right now.

However, the history of Tarazin the Grey has the following quote of note:
Like the other surviving dragons, Tarazin was completely immune to the divine explosion that created bloodlines of power among humans and other survivors.

[AndrewTall]

The time = blood works for many awnies and elves as well - who challenges Llaeddra for power? Why does the Sayer have such a puny bloodline? Who is challenging el stony?

I'd suggest that simply sleepng for a century would have the effect of surrendering the sources - even if the mebhaighl wasn't decided to slowly seep away as the dragon failed to maintain the source, a human wizard could disrupt the source, rule their own domain, and die of old age before the dragon awoke - assuming they even knew of the dragon to fear the opposition of the 'silent mage'.

I made GAK to toy with the concept of a awnie-dragon, to be frank the bloodline had a fairly minor effect - and long life is counter-productive to a surprising degree for a dragon.

But why not bloodlines, the effect is minor, but the mechanic of usurpation/etc works for everyone else, why not them? I can't see a normal dragon being particularly bothered with the hassle of ruling domains for what appears to be a fairly minor power up, but ruling up sources every now and then in order to correct abnormalities in the mebhaighl flow and the like sounds interesting - and a bloodline provides a handy mechanic.

[epicsoul]

You're correct that time works for elves and awnies (even dwarves to a lesser extent)...

but for one thing.

An awnie, or an elf? They still have to gain levels of experience. A dragon doesn't. A 2000 year old 1st lvl elf... is still 1st lvl, regardless of their bloodline strength.

A 2000 year old dragon... is an epic level creature. They grow - even while asleep. An elf doesn't. Now... that elf or awnie, sure, their levels are gained possibly fairly "safely", but they still risk having to compete for their holdings. A dragon doesn't. Their power level right from the start means that again, no one is going to challenge them.

Taking your elven domains and their rulers... they are (mostly) fighting a (losing) war against the human realms about them over the last 1000 years, let alone the non-human realms.

Face it. People just don't fear the Thorn Throne, or the Emerald Queen as they would a venerable Dragon. The Elf, and I mean good ol' Rhuobhe, is still a wuss compared to a dragon of the same age as he. Slap in a bloodline and you just make it tougher. A lot tougher because again, they don't face the challenges that the awnie's do. Someone with a good sword and a bloodline can hope to defeat an awnie with some luck - even then, it's been covered that the Gorgon is pretty well nigh-undefeatable as done in 3e. Consider that EVERY dragon left is as old as him or older... and then give them bloodlines. They started off more powerful than Raesene. If Raesene is almost a demigod in strength, and he started out as ... I dunno, let's say he was even 15th level at Deismaar, then what would that make another being that was MORE than his equal at the time, who has had more time - and more intelligence than he - to gain power?

or to put it another way... Raesene is ... what? a couple feet taller since Desimaar?

dragons that have lived that long are at least 50 feet taller. Size matters a bit.

[Mirviriam]

Good question - but already answered.

If you could get power from them in any quantity - the Gorgon would have cashed his dragon in by now.

[Sourceholder]

I know of no Cerilian dragon that is a regent or any rumors of one.

According to the BR WIKI "Kappenkriaucheran (HotGB)-- believed to inhabit the Drachenaur range, and may control sources near there." So, assuming whoever entered that is correct, there is a rumor of one.

[AndrewTall]

According to the BR WIKI "Kappenkriaucheran (HotGB)-- believed to inhabit the Drachenaur range, and may control sources near there." So, assuming whoever entered that is correct, there is a rumor of one.

I haven't seen Irdeggman post in over a year so suspect that he won't have the opportunity to comment (which is why thread necromancy is, if not absolutely banned, certainly frowned upon, particularly by Thelandrin) but Vore Lekiniskiy of Zoloskaya and possibly Uvna Farzeb would have been my rebuttal, Ohlaak the dragon (Rjurik Northlands) looking more to be a nascent awnie or rumor-monger. Canon is somewhat confused though, I think that Vore was a late addition and vaguely recall earlier stuff keeping Dragons as totally separate.