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  1. #1
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Recently read "Masters and Apprentices" in FRCS p. 92, and thought that BR
    would have something completely different. Since wizards must be blooded,
    it would seem that the same kinds of relationships that governed knightly
    training in the real world are probably employed for wizard training as well
    in Cerilia.

    Source rulers need lieutenants and loyal followers just as much as medieval
    barons needed knights with a bond of loyalty to them. Hence they desire
    promising apprentices from their own relation, their lieutenants, friendly
    peers, and other loyal subordinates. In such a culture, a certain
    obligation would exist to ensure that the children of your dependents were
    trained somehow.

    Further, you may have noticed how nearly all the wizards in the materials
    have a Vorynn bloodline. This implies that wizards are all related anyway.
    Its possible to trace the greatest distance possible between wizards, but
    most are probabaly 2nd and 3rd cousins.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  2. #2
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    Hello!

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >Recently read "Masters and Apprentices" in FRCS p. 92, and thought that BR
    >would have something completely different. Since wizards must be blooded,
    >it would seem that the same kinds of relationships that governed knightly
    >training in the real world are probably employed for wizard training as well
    >in Cerilia.
    >
    Not all apprentices are blooded wizards - think of Rogr as heir of the
    throne of Ilien. Wasn´t he a lowly magician, inheriting the bloodline of
    his lord?

    >Source rulers need lieutenants and loyal followers just as much as medieval
    >barons needed knights with a bond of loyalty to them. Hence they desire
    >promising apprentices from their own relation, their lieutenants, friendly
    >peers, and other loyal subordinates. In such a culture, a certain
    >obligation would exist to ensure that the children of your dependents were
    >trained somehow.
    >
    Yes, but the Book of Magecraft gives also examples where apprentices are
    simply children from rich familiys with nothing to inherit (like before
    100 years, where the 1st son was the heir and the other sons went to
    have a military career or to become a priest) - here one of the later
    sons goes and learns to become a wizard. There is even a character
    described for such an apprentice in the BoM.

    >Further, you may have noticed how nearly all the wizards in the materials
    >have a Vorynn bloodline. This implies that wizards are all related anyway.
    >Its possible to trace the greatest distance possible between wizards, but
    >most are probabaly 2nd and 3rd cousins.
    >
    Torele Anviras comes first to mind: Anduiras, Major 35 (Talinie)
    And then Daeric Dhoesone - he´s the cousinf of Clumine Dhoesone, but
    doesn´t share his bloodline. One has Anduiras, minor, 20 and the other
    Vorynn, jmajor, 25)

    And the logic of your "relationship of wizards" is flawed as well -
    their ancestors just had to be in the same place (near the men of Vorynn
    at Deismaar) to get their bloodline. No need to think of all wizards as
    cousins - 1500 years after Deismaar most of them would have suffered
    from incest...
    bye
    Michael

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  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
    Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 12:57 PM


    > Not all apprentices are blooded wizards - think of Rogr as heir of the
    > throne of Ilien. Wasn´t he a lowly magician, inheriting the bloodline of
    > his lord?

    I answered that when I said:
    > > Hence [wizards] desire promising apprentices from their own relation,
    > > their lieutenants, friendly peers, and other loyal subordinates. In
    such
    > > a culture, a certain obligation would exist to ensure that the children
    > > of your dependents were trained somehow.

    Rogr was recognized as worthy, so this dependent minor personage was raised
    up.

    > Yes, but the Book of Magecraft gives also examples where apprentices are
    > simply children from rich familiys with nothing to inherit (like before
    > 100 years, where the 1st son was the heir and the other sons went to
    > have a military career or to become a priest) - here one of the later
    > sons goes and learns to become a wizard. There is even a character
    > described for such an apprentice in the BoM.

    You forget that my model is knighthood. Most knights were the sons of
    nobles who did not inherit or the decendents thereof. Scions, but not
    rulers. So wizards are blooded (noble), but there is no requirement that
    they need to inherit anything, only that they can wield true magic.

    > Torele Anviras comes first to mind: Anduiras, Major 35 (Talinie)
    > And then Daeric Dhoesone - he´s the cousinf of Clumine Dhoesone, but
    > doesn´t share his bloodline. One has Anduiras, minor, 20 and the other
    > Vorynn, jmajor, 25)

    See my post of Monday, July 23, 2001 8:48 PM under the subject heading
    "Geneology" where I discuss this. Basically, you need to remember that as
    you go back up a family tree the number of ancestors increases
    exponentially, but the number of blooded people remains a relativly fixed
    proportion of the population. So, you very quickly run out of unique
    ancestors, and just in the generation of parents of the wizards described in
    the books, you need to start linking families. They must all be related.

    > And the logic of your "relationship of wizards" is flawed as well -
    > their ancestors just had to be in the same place (near the men of Vorynn
    > at Deismaar) to get their bloodline. No need to think of all wizards as
    > cousins - 1500 years after Deismaar most of them would have suffered
    > from incest...

    First, 1500 years ago a small group of people get bloodlines. How are these
    passed down? Through a very small breeding pool of people who share the
    characteristic of being decended from such a person. Exogmany quickly
    dilutes bloodline strength to tainted, very low levels. This group of
    people must be all very closely related. In fact, given the mobility of
    most people everyone in BR is related to their neighbors.

    As for the "suffered from incest" business, this is your tabboo speaking.
    We know that for most of human history, people married the people close to
    them, and this means those people were closely related to one another. In
    many places of the world, this is still common. So Slate.com asks what`s
    wrong with marrying your cousin. Check out "The Love That Dare Not Speak
    Its Surname: What`s wrong with marrying your cousin?" By William Saletan,
    posted Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 2:32 PM PT at Slate.com. There you`ll
    find this, "the National Society of Genetic Counselors says that having a
    child with your first cousin raises the risk of a significant birth defect
    from about 3-to-4 percent to about 4-to-7 percent.

    Its hardly the case that everyone would be "suffering from incest" whatever
    that means.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #4
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    > Recently read "Masters and Apprentices" in FRCS p. 92, and
    > thought that BR would have something completely different.
    > Since wizards must be blooded, it would seem that the same
    > kinds of relationships that governed knightly training in the
    > real world are probably employed for wizard training as well
    > in Cerilia.

    Probably yes. I know that in PBeMs my wizard characters have appealed to
    potential apprentices on these grounds...
    "You don`t learn magic at a school, like you learn heraldry or
    mathematics! You learn at the side of a master, as a squire learns from
    a knight!"
    It seems to appeal to the Anuirean aristocracy :)

    > Source rulers need lieutenants and loyal followers just as
    > much as medieval barons needed knights with a bond of loyalty
    > to them. Hence they desire promising apprentices from their
    > own relation, their lieutenants, friendly peers, and other
    > loyal subordinates. In such a culture, a certain obligation
    > would exist to ensure that the children of your dependents
    > were trained somehow.

    I agree!

    > Further, you may have noticed how nearly all the wizards in
    > the materials have a Vorynn bloodline. This implies that
    > wizards are all related anyway. Its possible to trace the
    > greatest distance possible between wizards, but most are
    > probabaly 2nd and 3rd cousins.

    I am not sure about this. I would suspect that Vorynn blooded folk tend
    to manifest a capacity for magic more frequently than others (yes, this
    relies on my "magical gift" theory). That being said I am also inclined
    to say that having magically gifted parents increases your chances as
    well. Therefore if you have magical parents and a Vorynn bloodline, you
    are pretty much destined to become a wizard. I suspect that this could
    lead to interbreeding by wizards, but I don`t know if one could say that
    most wizards are related. Not yet anyways.

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  5. #5
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    > Not all apprentices are blooded wizards - think of Rogr as
    > heir of the throne of Ilien. Wasn´t he a lowly magician,
    > inheriting the bloodline of his lord?

    Poor old Rogr.
    Suddenly having to learn all that new stuff.

    I think, though, that this happens infrequently and only when a good
    candiate cannot be found among the already blooded wizards.

    > Yes, but the Book of Magecraft gives also examples where
    > apprentices are simply children from rich familiys with
    > nothing to inherit (like before 100 years, where the 1st son
    > was the heir and the other sons went to have a military
    > career or to become a priest) - here one of the later sons
    > goes and learns to become a wizard. There is even a character
    > described for such an apprentice in the BoM.

    That assumes the basic AD&D2e assumption that anyone with INT 9 (and a
    bloodline, in BR) can be a wizard.
    I find this totally unsatisfactory for my purposes, especially with the
    ease in which one can multiclass in D&D3e. There must be something that
    prevents every third son/daughter of a noble house becoming a wizard,
    just because it is really really useful (first child inherits, second
    child to a church, third to a wizard)

    > Torele Anviras comes first to mind: Anduiras, Major 35
    > (Talinie) And then Daeric Dhoesone - he´s the cousinf of
    > Clumine Dhoesone, but doesn´t share his bloodline. One has
    > Anduiras, minor, 20 and the other Vorynn, jmajor, 25)

    I have a big list of Anuirean wizards. Or rather had, since I seem to
    have lost the back page.. However of the 17 mages sampled 10 have Vorynn
    bloodlines. On the Dhoesone problem, it is easy for bloodlines to be
    changed, somewhere along the line one other their ancestors must have
    married into a stronger line. However the familial magical gift was
    passed down.

    > And the logic of your "relationship of wizards" is flawed as
    > well - their ancestors just had to be in the same place (near
    > the men of Vorynn at Deismaar) to get their bloodline. No
    > need to think of all wizards as cousins - 1500 years after
    > Deismaar most of them would have suffered from incest... bye Michael

    You`d think that people who were proud of their line of wizards would
    strive to marry (or at least have children with) other people with the
    Vorynn lines, if only to increase the chance of magely offspring.

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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