magical theory

[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 13:26, John Machin wrote:
> Peter sez:
> > How about the deification of Haelyn etc, or the second
> > generation gods ? (Laerme Cuiraecen etc) Some gods have
> > mortal progeny (i.e. Hercules etc). Power from worship
> > however, I`ll go along with - the more followers a god has
> > the more stature as a god, especially w.r.t. other gods, or
> > as a member of a pantheon at least marginally. How to handle
> > non-specific deities ? (gods not exclusively worshiped but
> > worshiped as part of a group of gods)
>
> It does discuss this briefly in BoP (IIRC).
> I am not sure that Cuiraecen and Laerme were "born". It seems that
> Cuiraecen has a lot more to do with Haelyn than with Neserie. Ditto
> Laerme w/r/t Avanalae. I believe that Cuiraecen probably just "emerged"
> from Haelyn as one of Haelyn`s aspects became so important that it
> warranted a new deity.

The creation of new gods remains unsatisfactorily explained. (IMO -
Rhetorical questions follow) What governs the creation of new gods ?
Does this diminish the powers and or responsibilities of the other gods
? Does this imply that gods wither and fade perhaps to non-god or to
death ?
>
> I am also of the opinion that priests are abberrant in their worship
> behaviour. They tend to devote themselves to a single god, whereas most
> people will propitiate whatever god is appropriate. I realise that this
> flies in the face of what most people see the temple system of BR
> representing, but it seems unlikely that the vast majority of a populace
> actually worship one single deity. That being said, nearly all worship
> is pantheonic, i.e. shared around. Jim Bloggs, a farmer of Roesone,
> doesn`t worship Haelyn exclusively, he gives homage to all the deities
> at their appointed time.
Yeah, I agree with you here. It`s the power of the temple (institution)
that is important in a very materialistic way for BR - much like the
Bishoprics and Abbeys of early Christendom vied for status with each
other. (What am I saying early for ? - it still goes on today !)

What does this argument mean to the "worship gives power" theory though
?

>
> Peter sez:
> > In BR couldn`t you just accept that gods have an incredibly
> > high bloodline - one that is augmented by worship - the more
> > worshipers in the gods` domain, then the god gains in
> > bloodline ? (the `you` is not specific - I`m discussing this
> > generally)
>
> I wouldn`t do this myself, since it implies that the deities are just
> like you and me, only bigger. I think that the champions of the gods
> were selected to become the vessels for the dying gods divinity. Lots of
> people got bloodlines, only the champions became new gods. This was not
> accidental, it was deliberate IMO.
>
Does this then preclude the creation of new gods - by common worship for
example ? Can the power of worship alone "create" a god ?

Cerilia aside, many religions see the origin of their tribe or nation as
founded by a god, or the leaders of their tribe/nation as being
descended from gods. (or even gods themselves) Even Christ was born as a
man (although we start to get really technical here - reborn ?
incarnated ?). So there`s a damn good set of precedents to support
"deities are just like you and me only bigger".

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 13:26, John Machin wrote:
> Falcon sez:
> > I still think deities derive power from worship. Why else do
> > most of them try to gather as many of them as possible? Also,
> > it tends to be a rule that gods of greater stature have more
> > worshipper. Of course, you might say that it works the other
> > around: a god of greater stature has more worshippers
> > *because* she is of greater stature. But that still doesn`t
> > invalidate my first point: given the behaviour of most
> > priests, and given the assumption that they try to act in the
> > best interests of their god, isn`t the fact that they try to
> > convert people to the worship of their god some sort of
> > indication that gods need worshippers and gain some sort of
> > benefit of having more worshippers? So yes, deities gain
> > power from worship.
>
> Perhaps the priests believe that, just as human lords seek more
> subjects, so do the gods? Often people do things that *they* believe is
> the will of their god.
>
> Another alternative perhaps is one that Hero Wars gives us. The gods are
> ultimately static. By becoming immortal, all-powerful, and
> indestructible (effectively) they also become unchanging.

Perhaps, but the anecdotal evidence of the emergence of 2nd generation
gods changes the god-landscape with either an enlargement or a
reorganization of duties, powers and responsibilities. This implies
change in the cosmos on a less grand scale than that of the cataclysm of
Diesmaar.

>
> Falcon sez:
> > But it ends there. The fact that deities accumulate power
> > from worship, doesn`t mean that ordinary people can too. Or
> > at least, not directly. It also doesn`t mean that worship can
> > automatically elevate you to godhood. In my eyes, deities
> > gain power from worship *because* they are deities. You have
> > to be a deity before you can gain power from worship.
>
> Ergo my comments about the bloodline allowing regents to coalesce
> "worship energies".
>
> Falcon sez:
> > Note that this happens to stroke nicely with rulership in
> > Birthright. You need to have a bloodline before you can
> > ruler. Merely having subordinates doesn`t mean you
> > automatically get a bloodline.
>
> Well, you can be an unblooded ruler, but a blooded ruler can use their
> superior abilities to command loyalty (i.e. RP) to usurp your position
> with relative ease.
>
> Falcon sez:
> > That`s how I see it, anyways.
>
> I have actually clarified my position, in my mind, now. I believe that
> the gods are eternally gods, lack of worship won`t rob them of their
> divinity or condemn them to floating about in the Astral. However, I
> believe that, to a certain (unspecified) extent, worship can effect the
> power of the deities. Extensive worship might make a deity increase in
> power, but not to an unlimited extent.
Isn`t that a bit contradictory: more worship equals more power but less
worship or no worship has no effect ? What makes a god a god after all ?
(you can`t use divine being in your definition - :"divine being" ==
"god" is a null statement containing the same information twice)

If a god has the power to do "X" (whatever "X" is), and this power
delineates him as a god (as distinct from a demigod, or mortal for
instance, then that ability power or characteristic is a defining power.

A god who has no people and no worshipers and whose name is unknown is
difficult to have interact with the BR world. From a game perspective
they no longer exist (or the effect is the same).

I`m not putting any particular point of view here, just cogitating....

>
> I`m a bit leery of getting too technical here. I don`t think that
> deities really benefit from having hard and fast principles or
> stat-blocks, ala Deities and Demigods.. Still, I think this sort of
> thing can assist in forming a coherent cosmology of the setting.
>
> --
> John Machin
> (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
> -----------------------------------
> "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
> Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
>
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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 22 May 2002, John Machin wrote:
> > In BR couldn`t you just accept that gods have an incredibly
> > high bloodline - one that is augmented by worship - the more
> > worshipers in the gods` domain, then the god gains in
> > bloodline ? (the `you` is not specific - I`m discussing this
> > generally)
>
> I wouldn`t do this myself, since it implies that the deities are just
> like you and me, only bigger. I think that the champions of the gods
> were selected to become the vessels for the dying gods divinity. Lots of
> people got bloodlines, only the champions became new gods. This was not
> accidental, it was deliberate IMO.

The new 3e rules seem to bear this out, though- gods can be statted with
hit dice and levels and feats and such, but they also have divine rank, 0
to 20, which measures them compared to each other. Even a divine rank of
1 is a demigod, and pretty much unstoppable compared to mere mortals. But
BR could be thought of as representing play at the divine rank 0 level.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:11 AM


> Isn`t that a bit contradictory: more worship equals more power but less
> worship or no worship has no effect ? What makes a god a god after all ?

Not at all. A god can be seen to have a basic degree of power without
worshipers. Worshipers are a little gravy. Something extra that can be
added on. While less worship means that something extra is gone, the basic
and fundamental power of the god is still there.

I don`t need to postulate a herd of Azrai worshipers to imagine Azrai as a
powerful god.

> A god who has no people and no worshipers and whose name is unknown is
> difficult to have interact with the BR world. From a game perspective
> they no longer exist (or the effect is the same).

Not at all. I can lay out the plans for my new secret god Brwyn, god of
grains, and suddenly have famines and other effects because I think Brwyn is
an angry god.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 06:59 AM 5/22/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>I don`t need to postulate a herd of Azrai worshipers to imagine Azrai as a
>powerful god.

This is sort of apropos to this discussion....

All gods embody some human ideal, or a natural phenomena. I think gods do
gain some sort of energy (the god-level equivalent of regency) from their
worshippers, but because they can also represent natural phenomena it`s
plausible that they could also collect their god points from the god-level
equivalent of source holdings.

Azrai, being the god of shadow, had a pretty serious opportunity to collect
god points from whatever the source equivalent of sources is, because
shadows permeate existence.

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 7:37 AM

> All gods embody some human ideal, or a natural phenomena. I think gods
> do gain some sort of energy [...] from their worshippers, but because they
> can also represent natural phenomena it`s plausible that they could also
> collect their god points from the god-level equivalent of source holdings.

I think this "power from ideal" is the main source of divine power, and some
of the description in the BoP backs this up. Laerme doesn`t seek worshipers
because the fact that everyone feels love is enough. Get gets power from
loving, from creativity, from beauty. Oh, yeah, a few worshipers don`t
hurt.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 21:59, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:11 AM
>
>
> > Isn`t that a bit contradictory: more worship equals more power but less
> > worship or no worship has no effect ? What makes a god a god after all ?
>
> Not at all. A god can be seen to have a basic degree of power without
> worshipers. Worshipers are a little gravy. Something extra that can be
> added on. While less worship means that something extra is gone, the basic
> and fundamental power of the god is still there.
>
> I don`t need to postulate a herd of Azrai worshipers to imagine Azrai as a
> powerful god.
Okay - I`ll go along with that (so far) [that a god does not require
worshipers to be a god]. (although if anyone else out there wants to
jump in and make a suggestion or comment we could get more consensus)

Yeah - but what is that "basic degree of power" ? What is the difference
between a being with that "basic degree of power" and a god ? i.e. Is
that a good enough definition of a god ? (should we be able to describe
the "basic degree of power"), or is there more to it ?

Can someone with that "basic degree of power" (leaving it undefined for
the moment) who gains worshipers, gain "a little gravy" ?

>
> > A god who has no people and no worshipers and whose name is unknown is
> > difficult to have interact with the BR world. From a game perspective
> > they no longer exist (or the effect is the same).
>
> Not at all. I can lay out the plans for my new secret god Brwyn, god of
> grains, and suddenly have famines and other effects because I think Brwyn is
> an angry god.
While that may be a justification to the DM - the players will never
know and it will affect them no more than a DM`s fiat. (Unless you tell
them of course in which case she(/he) ceases to be unknown) But yeah, of
course you can - but the effect is identical to no god at all, just
random chance. You might like to argue that the god is trying to get
people to acknowledge it, (for what purpose ? - to gain worshipers ?)
but this is also an attempt to come into the open (cease to be secret).

>
> Kenneth Gauck
> kgauck@mchsi.com
>
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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 22:37, Gary wrote:
> At 06:59 AM 5/22/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> >I don`t need to postulate a herd of Azrai worshipers to imagine Azrai as a
> >powerful god.
>
> This is sort of apropos to this discussion....
>
> All gods embody some human ideal, or a natural phenomena. I think gods do
> gain some sort of energy (the god-level equivalent of regency) from their
> worshippers, but because they can also represent natural phenomena it`s
> plausible that they could also collect their god points from the god-level
> equivalent of source holdings.
>
> Azrai, being the god of shadow, had a pretty serious opportunity to collect
> god points from whatever the source equivalent of sources is, because
> shadows permeate existence.

Ah, that`s a good thought. So you`re saying that a god can derive power
from the physical or the meta-physical - both the object and the
abstract idea of the object so to speak ... interesting, very
interesting.

As a comment or corollary to that most very early RL
(real-life/real-world cf BR) gods were animals, followed by the next
step of more abstract gods (Sun, Moon etc) representing unknown or
unknowable objects (at least in detail - no one goes and touches the sun
etc).

Gods that embody certain human (or living being) characteristics such as
craft or commerce, for example, can be quite limited without followers
(weaker perhaps) than those that embody an ever-present "thing", e.g.
Azrai and the shadow world.

So the godly "holding", the "source"(s) so to speak exist separately and
are empowered/enhanced by worship. i.e. A potter makes beautiful vase,
this creates beauty empowering the God of Beauty. When people admire the
vase and give thanks to the Goddess for inspiring beauty in the world
they enhance the power of the Goddess further. That kind of thing ?

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[Trithemius]

Gary sez:
> All gods embody some human ideal, or a natural phenomena. I
> think gods do gain some sort of energy (the god-level
> equivalent of regency) from their worshippers, but because
> they can also represent natural phenomena it`s plausible that
> they could also collect their god points from the god-level
> equivalent of source holdings.

This need not mean that they dependent upon mortals for existence.
Perhaps all human ideals come from the gods? Undoubtably they fashioned
the world and the creatures upon it, are they going to make them utterly
different to themselves?

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Daniel sez:
> The new 3e rules seem to bear this out, though- gods can be
> statted with hit dice and levels and feats and such, but they
> also have divine rank, 0 to 20, which measures them compared
> to each other. Even a divine rank of 1 is a demigod, and
> pretty much unstoppable compared to mere mortals. But BR
> could be thought of as representing play at the divine rank 0 level.

This was what I was thinking, pretty much.
I don`t think I`d ever tell my players they were rank 0 deities, since
it might go to their heads. Rank 0 deities are still pretty nice
(immortality, etc..)

As I have said, I am not sure of the point in giving the gods
stat-blocks. I do notice that there is no CR for them though :)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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