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Thread: magical theory
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05-25-2002, 12:15 AM #31
Peter sez:
> I don`t find a compelling reason that the seven original gods
> were the creators. Bloodspawn seems very "tacked on" in this
> respect rather than being included in original thought on
> this. The original gods were father/mother figures for the
> original tribes - these are not creation myth gods.
You don`t see father and mother figures as creators? Goodness!
I will agree with you about the "tacked on" feel of Bloodspawn, I am
personally leery about giving it too much weight, but it IS a supplement
and I have to give it some attention.
> I agree, but I think that the ideals of the original gods and
> their original spheres have gone beyond the original with the
> inheritors. The inheritors are a higher form reflecting the
> advancement of the "tribe" to higher ideals espoused by the
> original gods. (not more powerful, just more
> civilized/complex/etc responding to a higher order of need)
Perhaps the destruction of the old gods was necessary, to provide both a
freedom from the Shadow and to allow the gods and their people to "move
on" culturally.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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05-25-2002, 03:08 PM #32
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On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:00, John Machin wrote:
> Peter sez:
> > I don`t find a compelling reason that the seven original gods
> > were the creators. Bloodspawn seems very "tacked on" in this
> > respect rather than being included in original thought on
> > this. The original gods were father/mother figures for the
> > original tribes - these are not creation myth gods.
>
> You don`t see father and mother figures as creators? Goodness!
tribal creators yes. world creators no.
> I will agree with you about the "tacked on" feel of Bloodspawn, I am
> personally leery about giving it too much weight, but it IS a supplement
> and I have to give it some attention.
>
> > I agree, but I think that the ideals of the original gods and
> > their original spheres have gone beyond the original with the
> > inheritors. The inheritors are a higher form reflecting the
> > advancement of the "tribe" to higher ideals espoused by the
> > original gods. (not more powerful, just more
> > civilized/complex/etc responding to a higher order of need)
>
> Perhaps the destruction of the old gods was necessary, to provide both a
> freedom from the Shadow and to allow the gods and their people to "move
> on" culturally.
Certainly new gods were necessary (or advantageous or whatever).
Perhaps, destruction was necessary (they could have just faded away).
"It`s better to burn out, than fade away,
my, my hey, hey"
>
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05-26-2002, 12:46 AM #33
Peter sez:
> tribal creators yes. world creators no.
I would have thought that they would be closely paralleled in both BR
and the RW.
> Certainly new gods were necessary (or advantageous or
> whatever). Perhaps, destruction was necessary (they could
> have just faded away).
I mean, it wasn`t a choice on the part of the gods, but it was a
universal inevitability or something. I can`t say I`ve given this
particular line of thinking much hard thought.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
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The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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05-26-2002, 03:46 AM #34
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On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 10:03, John Machin wrote:
> Peter sez:
> > tribal creators yes. world creators no.
>
> I would have thought that they would be closely paralleled in both BR
> and the RW.
>
> > Certainly new gods were necessary (or advantageous or
> > whatever). Perhaps, destruction was necessary (they could
> > have just faded away).
>
> I mean, it wasn`t a choice on the part of the gods, but it was a
> universal inevitability or something. I can`t say I`ve given this
> particular line of thinking much hard thought.
Yeah yeah - we`re in agreement on the cosmic significance here .. I
think.
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05-26-2002, 03:46 AM #35
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On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 10:03, John Machin wrote:
> Peter sez:
> > tribal creators yes. world creators no.
>
> I would have thought that they would be closely paralleled in both BR
> and the RW.
>
No not always, there is quite a diversity among cultures.
Creation myths fall into 5 general classifications:
(1) From chaos or nothingness (ex nihilo)
(2) From a cosmic egg or primal maternal mound
(3) From world parents who are separated
(4) From a process of earth-diving
(5) From several stages of emergence from other worlds
Sometimes more than one is used. (just to really confuse matters)
Obviously, a god that is a tribal creator/head is not prevented from any
of the above but neither is he/she mandated either. For two tribes that
closely interact and have a system of inter-tribal marriages (such as is
in common in the amazonian jungles), a world creation myth of (3) is
very suitable.
In BR, I would put it to you that (1), (2), or (4) are most suitable.
For (2), it would be that the original gods sprang from some common
maternal mound then went their separate ways to form tribes/families of
their own possibly by taking mates of non-divine origin.
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05-26-2002, 12:00 PM #36
> No not always, there is quite a diversity among cultures.
But there are examples of the tribe-maker being the world-maker as well,
right? That was what I was saying. My point is not that all cultures are
"x", but that pre-Cerilian human cultures on Aerbrynis are "x". I am not
such a puissant scholar of mythology to attempt anything startling.
> In BR, I would put it to you that (1), (2), or (4) are most
> suitable. For (2), it would be that the original gods sprang
> from some common maternal mound then went their separate ways
> to form tribes/families of their own possibly by taking mates
> of non-divine origin.
I would say that for BR, the process was the gods giving order to the
primal chaos, as is suggested in Bloodspawn. I feel that this bears a
remarkable similarity to a number of RW myths.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.John 'Trithemius' Machin
The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
-
05-26-2002, 12:00 PM #37
Peter sez:
> Yeah yeah - we`re in agreement on the cosmic significance
> here .. I think.
Possibly.
I tend to think that we see things in totally different ways though.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.John 'Trithemius' Machin
The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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05-27-2002, 01:34 AM #38
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On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 21:15, John Machin wrote:
> > No not always, there is quite a diversity among cultures.
>
> But there are examples of the tribe-maker being the world-maker as well,
> right? That was what I was saying. My point is not that all cultures are
> "x", but that pre-Cerilian human cultures on Aerbrynis are "x". I am not
> such a puissant scholar of mythology to attempt anything startling.
Yes. Many case where the creator of mankind is also the creator of the
world - rarely though are they the father-god figure (more often they
are manifestations of the physical world).
>
> > In BR, I would put it to you that (1), (2), or (4) are most
> > suitable. For (2), it would be that the original gods sprang
> > from some common maternal mound then went their separate ways
> > to form tribes/families of their own possibly by taking mates
> > of non-divine origin.
>
> I would say that for BR, the process was the gods giving order to the
> primal chaos, as is suggested in Bloodspawn. I feel that this bears a
> remarkable similarity to a number of RW myths.
Yes. Okay.
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