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Thread: magical theory
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05-04-2002, 04:01 PM #1
In the ancient world, there were two metaphysical camps. The materialists,
who argued that reality is composed of stuff, material stuff, and the
dynamists who argued that reality is composed of forces, which were willful.
The rain wants to rain. The sun wants to shine. Our ideas of soul, spirit,
and animistic thinking emerge from this camp. Today, we are materialists
who have coopted forces by subjecting them to materialist methods, namely by
making them impersonal and subject to mathematics. Newton`s gravity is a
perfect example. The product of the masses divided by the square of the
distance between their center points. This is not a willful occurance.
In adopting a thorough-going materialism, we invented science and abandon
the concept of magic as a plausible force among educated people. People who
cling to magic like to think of it as a science, people who do science
certainly do not think of it as magic.
There is nothing wrong with a scientific basis for spellcasting and the
powers, but it certainly is different from a spellcasting based on some
other theory of mentalism-produces-effects, like psionics, or dynamist based
spellcasting. For a dynamist, all magic is willful. Mighty forces *come*
to your aid. You don`t mechanistically employ them (mechanism is branch of
materialism), because they choose to have an effect. This is one of the
things the dice can be said to represent. Divine spells are granted by
certain kinds of willful spirits, for the dynamist, arcane spells are
granted by other kinds of willful spirits, perhaps less familiar to humans.
The mention of "forces" in 2E priestly magic is a kind of intermediate kind
of spirit, willing and requiring veneration, but having the personality of a
god.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-05-2002, 05:33 PM #2
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> There is nothing wrong with a scientific basis for
> spellcasting and the powers, but it certainly is different
> from a spellcasting based on some other theory of
> mentalism-produces-effects, like psionics, or dynamist based
> spellcasting. For a dynamist, all magic is willful. Mighty
> forces *come* to your aid. You don`t mechanistically employ
> them (mechanism is branch of materialism), because they
> choose to have an effect. This is one of the things the dice
> can be said to represent. Divine spells are granted by
> certain kinds of willful spirits, for the dynamist, arcane
> spells are granted by other kinds of willful spirits, perhaps
> less familiar to humans. The mention of "forces" in 2E
> priestly magic is a kind of intermediate kind of spirit,
> willing and requiring veneration, but having the personality of a god.
>Kenneth explains this rather well, if I do say so myself.
>One thing to remember though is that knowing that a certain action
(i.e.
>the invocations necessary to cast say, a fireball) will almost always
>result in a massive ball of fire exploding on your enemies (or
>inconveniently placed allies) is not the same scientific knowledge. It
>is not a mechanistic reaction, it is more to do with "asking nicely"
>than "physics via invisible gears".
>Arcane spellcasting is not use of some "special" kind of physics, it is
>knowing the proper ways to persuade inhuman (and probably not even
>sentient in a human sort of way) forces into doing what you want.
Now, I think that your theories are dangerously wandering into reality a
little. Wether or not you believe in the stuff called magic in real
life, there certainly are some things happening that science can`t
explain. However, we witness that science is constantly finding ways to
explain things that were once impossible to explain.
Following this line of thought, we reach the conclusion that everythting
is natural. There are no supernatural things, just as there are no
science and magic as two different things. Those two words merely divide
nature into what we do and what we do not understand.
Now, back to fantasy. I think that god is a manifestation of faith. For
example, a large number people believe in Anduiras and he starts
existing as focus of their belief. It is either just focused belief or
belief focused in an individual(in case of belief in living being as a
god). In real world, "mircles" happen because large number of people
believe that it is possible. In fantasy, there are people called Clerics
who can draw on that belief with their prayers and perform miracles.
This was about Divine magic only. I guess Arcane magic should be even
more natural. Or maybe Arcane spellcasters are individuals who learn to
produce miracles on their own, with only their own belief? Or maybe
wizardry could be considered just another religion?
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05-05-2002, 05:33 PM #3
----- Original Message -----
From: "Milos Rasic" <mrasic@TEHNICOM.NET>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 10:30 AM
> Now, I think that your theories are dangerously wandering into reality a
> little.
I will reveal myself as a died in the wool materialist and say that there is
nothing except reality. Fantasy is only a re-arrangement of ideas about,
visions of, and constructions of reality. There are no really alien ideas.
When George Lucas created all the alien voices in the Cantina bar, he used
regular voices played backwards and broken into different parts because he
realized that an attempt to be alien without a firm hold on real speech
would wind up sounding fake. Fantasy without being a rearrangement of,
reversal of, or otherwise based on reality provides a sense of
artificiality.
> There certainly are some things happening that science can`t
> explain. However, we witness that science is constantly finding
> ways to explain things that were once impossible to explain.
>
> Following this line of thought, we reach the conclusion that everythting
> is natural. There are no supernatural things, just as there are no
> science and magic as two different things. Those two words merely divide
> nature into what we do and what we do not understand.
An excellent materialist argument for the non existance of magic. Hence you
must already be a convert to the supposition that materialism has no place
in a fantasy game. It certainly a fine premice for non-fantasy RPG`s, on
the other hand.
> Now, back to fantasy. I think that god is a manifestation of faith.
I think gods are super beings transending the existance with which we are
familair.
> For example, a large number people believe in Anduiras and he
> starts existing as focus of their belief. It is either just focused
> belief or belief focused in an individual(in case of belief in living
> being as a god).
I think that Andurias was entirely unaffected by his worshipers (in the
sense of his power) and that he only chose to interact with them because he
created them and saw Azrai attempting to mess with creation as a personal
attack.
> In real world, "mircles" happen because large number of people
> believe that it is possible. In fantasy, there are people called Clerics
> who can draw on that belief with their prayers and perform miracles.
Actually miracles don`t happen, they are just thought to happen. In
fantasy, gods have unlimted power and can tell their clerics, "Hey, when you
get to the Red Sea, raise your staff when you are ready to cross, and I`ll
part the waters."
> This was about Divine magic only. I guess Arcane magic should be even
> more natural. Or maybe Arcane spellcasters are individuals who learn to
> produce miracles on their own, with only their own belief? Or maybe
> wizardry could be considered just another religion?
Or maybe the whole belief makes magic paradigm should be abandoned.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-06-2002, 01:05 AM #4
> I think that Andurias was entirely unaffected by his
> worshipers (in the sense of his power) and that he only chose
> to interact with them because he created them and saw Azrai
> attempting to mess with creation as a personal attack.
I am not sure about this. While we have talked about this sort of this
before, off list, I still like the idea that people do matter to the
gods. Perhaps they only matter up to the point where a god becomes a
"proper god"? I don`t know. D&D certainly seems to make us think that
belief has a power - Planescape suggests this, as does the mechanic of
bloodlines and RP (to my mind).
I could probably be persuaded the other way though.
> Or maybe the whole belief makes magic paradigm should be abandoned.
For Birthright, yes. For Unknown Armies or Mage: the Ascension, never.
Different games, different motifs, different methods.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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05-06-2002, 01:05 AM #5
> Now, I think that your theories are dangerously wandering
> into reality a little. Wether or not you believe in the stuff
> called magic in real life, there certainly are some things
> happening that science can`t explain. However, we witness
> that science is constantly finding ways to explain things
> that were once impossible to explain.
I feel that my opinions in this regard are probably not relevant.
At least not to a discussion about a fantastic world. There is a reason
I am not a member of lists that discuss this sort of thing all the time,
and that is because I`d rather not do it. I am interested, primarily, in
the game metaphysic. I am quite willing to assume (as they do in Ars
Magica) that models of reality that we have discarded are 100% accurate
in the game-world. Yes there is pholgiston and a lunar sphere, yes it is
demons of sickness that make people ill.
> Following this line of thought, we reach the conclusion that
> everythting is natural. There are no supernatural things,
> just as there are no science and magic as two different
> things. Those two words merely divide nature into what we do
> and what we do not understand.
Who said things were supernatural? I am pretty sure I didn`t. Inhuman
maybe, but ducks are inhuman too and they are certainly natural.
> Now, back to fantasy. I think that god is a manifestation of
> faith. For example, a large number people believe in Anduiras
> and he starts existing as focus of their belief. It is either
> just focused belief or belief focused in an individual(in
> case of belief in living being as a god). In real world,
> "mircles" happen because large number of people believe that
> it is possible. In fantasy, there are people called Clerics
> who can draw on that belief with their prayers and perform miracles.
>
> This was about Divine magic only. I guess Arcane magic should
> be even more natural. Or maybe Arcane spellcasters are
> individuals who learn to produce miracles on their own, with
> only their own belief? Or maybe wizardry could be considered
> just another religion?
In my conception of Birthright gods benefit from worship but they are
not soley composed of it. Haelyn existed before people began to worship
him, he merely became stronger when the human-divine partnership of
worship began. Magic doesn`t come from within, the gift to use it yes,
but not magic itself. The only inherently magical species on Cerilia are
the ancient ones - the sidhelien, the dragons and, in some people`s
campaign`s, the giants. For all other peoples the act of magic is the
act of interacting with an external force, be it one that is
understandable by everyday persons (i.e. gods) or one that lacks any
human guise (i.e. mebhaighl).
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
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The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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05-21-2002, 10:33 AM #6
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<< I am not sure about this. While we have talked about this sort of this
before, off list, I still like the idea that people do matter to the
gods. Perhaps they only matter up to the point where a god becomes a
"proper god"? I don`t know. D&D certainly seems to make us think that
belief has a power - Planescape suggests this, as does the mechanic of
bloodlines and RP (to my mind).
>>
I still think deities derive power from worship. Why else do most of them
try to gather as many of them as possible? Also, it tends to be a rule that
gods of greater stature have more worshipper. Of course, you might say that
it works the other around: a god of greater stature has more worshippers
*because* she is of greater stature. But that still doesn`t invalidate my
first point: given the behaviour of most priests, and given the assumption
that they try to act in the best interests of their god, isn`t the fact
that they try to convert people to the worship of their god some sort of
indication that gods need worshippers and gain some sort of benefit of
having more worshippers? So yes, deities gain power from worship.
But it ends there. The fact that deities accumulate power from worship,
doesn`t mean that ordinary people can too. Or at least, not directly. It
also doesn`t mean that worship can automatically elevate you to godhood. In
my eyes, deities gain power from worship *because* they are deities. You
have to be a deity before you can gain power from worship.
Note that this happens to stroke nicely with rulership in Birthright. You
need to have a bloodline before you can ruler. Merely having subordinates
doesn`t mean you automatically get a bloodline.
That`s how I see it, anyways.
- the Falcon
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05-21-2002, 10:33 AM #7
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<< In my conception of Birthright gods benefit from worship but they are
not soley composed of it. Haelyn existed before people began to worship
him, he merely became stronger when the human-divine partnership of
worship began.
>>
That`s exactly how I see it too. It`s just like being blooded doesn`t mean
you automatically collect RP either. Keep in mind though, that even if
you`re blooded, if you don`t collect RP, you can`t spend. If we assume that
rulership reflects or is parallel to divinity in some way, that would also
mean that a god who is not worship, doesn`t have any real power, or at least
not on the same level as a worshipped god, just like a non-ruler scion does
not command power on the same level as a ruling scion.
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05-21-2002, 10:33 AM #8
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On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 19:35, the Falcon wrote:
> << I am not sure about this. While we have talked about this sort of this
> before, off list, I still like the idea that people do matter to the
> gods. Perhaps they only matter up to the point where a god becomes a
> "proper god"? I don`t know. D&D certainly seems to make us think that
> belief has a power - Planescape suggests this, as does the mechanic of
> bloodlines and RP (to my mind).
> >>
>
> I still think deities derive power from worship. Why else do most of them
> try to gather as many of them as possible? Also, it tends to be a rule that
> gods of greater stature have more worshipper. Of course, you might say that
> it works the other around: a god of greater stature has more worshippers
> *because* she is of greater stature. But that still doesn`t invalidate my
> first point: given the behaviour of most priests, and given the assumption
> that they try to act in the best interests of their god, isn`t the fact
> that they try to convert people to the worship of their god some sort of
> indication that gods need worshippers and gain some sort of benefit of
> having more worshippers? So yes, deities gain power from worship.
>
> But it ends there. The fact that deities accumulate power from worship,
> doesn`t mean that ordinary people can too. Or at least, not directly. It
> also doesn`t mean that worship can automatically elevate you to godhood. In
> my eyes, deities gain power from worship *because* they are deities. You
> have to be a deity before you can gain power from worship.
>
> Note that this happens to stroke nicely with rulership in Birthright. You
> need to have a bloodline before you can ruler. Merely having subordinates
> doesn`t mean you automatically get a bloodline.
>
> That`s how I see it, anyways.
>
> - the Falcon
Hmmmm, isn`t it a bit "chicken and egg" ?
How about the deification of Haelyn etc, or the second generation gods ?
(Laerme Cuiraecen etc) Some gods have mortal progeny (i.e. Hercules
etc). Power from worship however, I`ll go along with - the more
followers a god has the more stature as a god, especially w.r.t. other
gods, or as a member of a pantheon at least marginally. How to handle
non-specific deities ? (gods not exclusively worshiped but worshiped as
part of a group of gods)
In BR couldn`t you just accept that gods have an incredibly high
bloodline - one that is augmented by worship - the more worshipers in
the gods` domain, then the god gains in bloodline ? (the `you` is not
specific - I`m discussing this generally)
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05-22-2002, 03:50 AM #9
Peter sez:
> How about the deification of Haelyn etc, or the second
> generation gods ? (Laerme Cuiraecen etc) Some gods have
> mortal progeny (i.e. Hercules etc). Power from worship
> however, I`ll go along with - the more followers a god has
> the more stature as a god, especially w.r.t. other gods, or
> as a member of a pantheon at least marginally. How to handle
> non-specific deities ? (gods not exclusively worshiped but
> worshiped as part of a group of gods)
It does discuss this briefly in BoP (IIRC).
I am not sure that Cuiraecen and Laerme were "born". It seems that
Cuiraecen has a lot more to do with Haelyn than with Neserie. Ditto
Laerme w/r/t Avanalae. I believe that Cuiraecen probably just "emerged"
from Haelyn as one of Haelyn`s aspects became so important that it
warranted a new deity.
I am also of the opinion that priests are abberrant in their worship
behaviour. They tend to devote themselves to a single god, whereas most
people will propitiate whatever god is appropriate. I realise that this
flies in the face of what most people see the temple system of BR
representing, but it seems unlikely that the vast majority of a populace
actually worship one single deity. That being said, nearly all worship
is pantheonic, i.e. shared around. Jim Bloggs, a farmer of Roesone,
doesn`t worship Haelyn exclusively, he gives homage to all the deities
at their appointed time.
Peter sez:
> In BR couldn`t you just accept that gods have an incredibly
> high bloodline - one that is augmented by worship - the more
> worshipers in the gods` domain, then the god gains in
> bloodline ? (the `you` is not specific - I`m discussing this
> generally)
I wouldn`t do this myself, since it implies that the deities are just
like you and me, only bigger. I think that the champions of the gods
were selected to become the vessels for the dying gods divinity. Lots of
people got bloodlines, only the champions became new gods. This was not
accidental, it was deliberate IMO.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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05-22-2002, 03:50 AM #10
Falcon sez:
> I still think deities derive power from worship. Why else do
> most of them try to gather as many of them as possible? Also,
> it tends to be a rule that gods of greater stature have more
> worshipper. Of course, you might say that it works the other
> around: a god of greater stature has more worshippers
> *because* she is of greater stature. But that still doesn`t
> invalidate my first point: given the behaviour of most
> priests, and given the assumption that they try to act in the
> best interests of their god, isn`t the fact that they try to
> convert people to the worship of their god some sort of
> indication that gods need worshippers and gain some sort of
> benefit of having more worshippers? So yes, deities gain
> power from worship.
Perhaps the priests believe that, just as human lords seek more
subjects, so do the gods? Often people do things that *they* believe is
the will of their god.
Another alternative perhaps is one that Hero Wars gives us. The gods are
ultimately static. By becoming immortal, all-powerful, and
indestructible (effectively) they also become unchanging.
Falcon sez:
> But it ends there. The fact that deities accumulate power
> from worship, doesn`t mean that ordinary people can too. Or
> at least, not directly. It also doesn`t mean that worship can
> automatically elevate you to godhood. In my eyes, deities
> gain power from worship *because* they are deities. You have
> to be a deity before you can gain power from worship.
Ergo my comments about the bloodline allowing regents to coalesce
"worship energies".
Falcon sez:
> Note that this happens to stroke nicely with rulership in
> Birthright. You need to have a bloodline before you can
> ruler. Merely having subordinates doesn`t mean you
> automatically get a bloodline.
Well, you can be an unblooded ruler, but a blooded ruler can use their
superior abilities to command loyalty (i.e. RP) to usurp your position
with relative ease.
Falcon sez:
> That`s how I see it, anyways.
I have actually clarified my position, in my mind, now. I believe that
the gods are eternally gods, lack of worship won`t rob them of their
divinity or condemn them to floating about in the Astral. However, I
believe that, to a certain (unspecified) extent, worship can effect the
power of the deities. Extensive worship might make a deity increase in
power, but not to an unlimited extent.
I`m a bit leery of getting too technical here. I don`t think that
deities really benefit from having hard and fast principles or
stat-blocks, ala Deities and Demigods.. Still, I think this sort of
thing can assist in forming a coherent cosmology of the setting.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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