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Thread: Religous Zeal

  1. #11
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    Answers continued

    Thanks for the information related to the Book of Priestcraft. I happen to have the text and will look up this information this evening.

    As for how the "character" has some idea of the power of the shield...well my best guess is that the player controlling him looked it up on the Internet. Yea I know, and yes you are very correct, PC knowledge should not equal character knowledge, but sometimes the best of intentions don't always occur. Fortunately for me, much of the information he acquired is not all that clear or accurate and now he's having to find out what the shield can actually do.

    As for the Book of Laws, that was another very long string of quests to show personnel from OIT that he did not mean to cause them difficulty and was only looking for additional knowledge to help in his quest to know the truth. I also did not portray the different sects of Haelyn as being all that overtly hostile to one another - only believing that those not following their specific sect are foolish in their beliefs and simply need to be brought back to the real light of truth.

    This quest the character has followed has taken about 1.5 to 2 years of real time to complete, and has contained a lot of very good role-playing opportunities, which included many personnel from the different sects of Halelyn. Some went well, while others didn't. But none were ever overly hostile or dangerous.

    I agree that making a new domain action that encompasses or subverts others is not the way I'd like to go.

  2. #12
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinster View Post
    As for the Book of Laws, that was another very long string of quests to show personnel from OIT that he did not mean to cause them difficulty and was only looking for additional knowledge to help in his quest to know the truth. I also did not portray the different sects of Haelyn as being all that overtly hostile to one another - only believing that those not following their specific sect are foolish in their beliefs and simply need to be brought back to the real light of truth.
    So what happened was that the character actually converted to OIT and is now trying to spread that particular brand of belief into the present day WIT, even if the character (and player) doesn't realize it.

    Look at it from that viewpoint and an entirely different way of handling things should open up to you.

    The different sects don't need to be openly hostile towards each other, but should be politically in opposition (not as much as say any sect of Haelyn is towards any sect of Belnick, but. . .). There should be as much competion between the different sects as there is between different guilds. It is all politics, which is one of the things that makes Birthright so unique.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #13
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    The Shield

    As you said, the PC may be slightly incorrect about the powers of the shield. This is good. This is easy to work with. Instead of it "converting people to the just cause of Haelyn", why not
    * charm people for one time segment such that they are more amicable (better morale). You get to choose the scale of the effect (encounter/holding/province) and the length of time.
    * "convert" people for only one time segment or as long as the bearer is going on his public speaking tour in the area. This would have to be a character action.
    * undo all the charm/conversion after the time segment and allow the populace to realise that they had succumbed to the PC's "wow" factor.

    You could call it the Steve Jobs/Richard Branson/Obama effect.

    The action

    What ever you decide, it shouldn't be an issue of just changing a few regent's minds. You are either
    1) asking the Pope to go Anglican (or Lutheran) and bring all of his followers along but stay as an independent temple from your PC, or
    2) setting a World Council of Haelynite Churches and asking them to recognise the PC as being more important than their own regents, or
    3) actually grabbing hold of the holdings from the existing Haelynite churches through Great Captain/divesture/transfer/vassalage

    Either way, it will have a massive effect. It shouldn't be able to be done in a single action.
    I think your PC will need to demonstrate their prowess and leadership and the advantage of such changes. This can be done through a number of events (depending on whether it is 1, 2 or 3):
    A) Weakness: Highlight the corruption, ineptness etc of the existing temples so as to increase any existing insecurities the populace has about the temples.
    B) Crisis: Have a major event, e.g. civil war, series of assassinations, plagues, that needs special handling. The PC needs to come out of it looking better than the existing temples. Therefore, the PC needs to work out themselves how to "make things better".
    C) Turnover: The actual switcheroo where the PC steps forward to take the spotlight from the temples and take his position as the new voice of Haelyn.

    At each stage there will be many opposing sides, each with their own goals. The PC may even get allies that have hidden agendas that will bite him later on. Perhaps he too needs to make massive sacrifices to them in order to fullfill his aims.

    Sorontar
    Last edited by Sorontar; 09-10-2009 at 01:24 AM. Reason: clarify dot points

  4. #14
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    Don't regret what you've done already, Grinster. I actually think all of your DM choices are very workable and very interesting. Having a vassal as the Cardinal/Prelate/Archbishop over the temple holdings in one realm is a common arrangement in BR games and works well. It also now makes sense why he was assigned to the Imperial City.

    I also don't think you need to regret the decision to give him Haelyn's Rampart. That whole deal sounds like a really interesting scenario. And I agree with the player that a true artifact, clearly among the mightiest of Haelyn's relics and delivered by his blessing, can indeed inspire conversions. Pagan, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim histories are replete with evidence that relics can inspire tremendously.

    Further, there is plenty of Birthright and historical analogues to what you are doing. The whole saga of Fitzalan the Prophet, who originated the now-powerful and dominant Northern Imperial Temple sect is quite a strong and direct precedent. Seems your PC is like a new Fitzalan. Fits right in and could be really cool, as long as you're prepared for it.

    Reuniting the Imperial Temple of Haelyn (IT or ITH) is also a worthy goal that has been tried before. I saw it happen in one PBEM, and it was a tremendous source of good gameplay and story, for all regent types. I think the way I saw it happen was among the best, creating an arrangement sort of like the Emperor had--the Archprelate had personal holdings (10 in the Imperial City, perhaps others), and all other temples eventually consolidated under him as vassals. Keep in mind that in a polytheistic society worshipping an allied pantheon, ALL the goodly gods are worshipped regularly in every realm; those temples devoted more particularly to Cuiraecen or Nesirie or whatever still revere Haelyn as the King of the gods, but they believe these other gods are closer to them, more specific patrons over their locale. So vassalage to an over-arching Imperial Temple is quite possible while retaining their identity--though of course there are many reasons they may not wish to enter into that vassalage.

    I would also disagree with Irdeggman in that your PC need not have "converted to the OIT." I'm more used to the situation where ALL temples of Haelyn revere the Book of Laws and see it as the foundation of their faith, with their own copies and under their own interpretations. The original artifact just happens to be held and guarded by the OIT.

    I think Birthright-L's comment about being an anti-Martin Luther brings up some interesting possibilities (though I disagree strongly with the anti-organized-religion comments/conclusions at the end of that post ). Consider what is commonly known as the Counter-Reformation (or just the true "Reformation" among Catholics). Attempts were made by the Catholic Church to redress disorders while at the same time evangelize and catechize, defending beliefs from Protestant critics. Monastic orders like the Franciscans, Dominicans, and Benedictines were involved, as were the Jesuits, all seeking to re-unite schismatics.

    Taking this as inspiration, your player could seek to organize his followers into Orders like those monastic and priestly orders. They would go forth and spread his prophetic teachings. The form this would take in game rules would vary.

    I don't think a "Conversion" action is needed. It's all in how you explain existing actions. Contestation (which can be followed by Investing those successfully-contested holdings) and Ruling have often been described as including prosyletizing efforts and conversions. There is always some amount of unrest from such change, which is why the targeted holdings get to resist (with their holding level plus any RP the regent devotes). Successfully contested holdings, however, can indicate that the people have flocked to the new prophet's teachings, that nobles, priests, and even higher-ranking bishops have
    also accepted his teachings. In this manner, Contest and Invest, or Contest and Rule, are still probably the most accurate actions to describe his conversion attempts.

    Now, you can still go with Great Captain events. Those can be spontaneous (a few very well might be, particularly in response to in-character adventure/roleplaying visits by the PC), or instigated by Espionage, Agitate, or Diplomacy actions. Do keep in mind Agitation--that also can describe very well missionary attempts.

    So I think your player's desires are very workable and could make for a great game. I think the strategy to achieve them can take many great directions:
    1. Contest and Invest or Contest and Rule of other temple holdings, through preaching, etc.
    2. Espionage, Agitate, and Diplomacy actions to gain support in various territories, instigate Great Captain events with the captains joining him, perhaps even win over Allies or Vassals among other Temple regents.
    3. In-character adventures to persuade others that might result in any of the above or spontaneous Great Captain events.
    4. Creation of special missionary Orders to spread his prophetic message--I would treat these as extensions of his Court. The higher his Court the stronger they are. Let him establish them in certain provinces as if they were Embassies or Spy Networks or 0-level Temple Holdings (but perhaps only requiring a Court action to attempt to establish them). Then let them take Espionage, Agitate, Diplomacy, or Contest actions as Court actions. This would allow fairly rapid expansion to be possible, though it would mostly be by luck of the dice, since the RP cost would be too high to devote to all the actions.

    Of course, he can gain tremendous support from other regents if they fall in with him--he'll particularly need their money, RP, and law support. Also, I would allow any actions he takes in person to gain some bonus from personal prestige (as a prophet) and from Haelyn's Rampart--perhaps a +2 to +5 bonus.

    Also, consider letting him get prestigious followers--Lieutenants who can add a bonus to Court or Domain actions they personally are assigned to.

    This all could start a movement that will most likely be a hugely central plotline, perhaps the dominant one. A very interesting one, though, that could ultimately support the re-formation of the Empire. Of course, there are likely to be religious wars in the process...perhaps not from Nesiriens, but particularly from Cuiraecens and militant sects of Haelyn--the NIT comes to mind...
    Last edited by Rowan; 09-10-2009 at 05:36 AM.

  5. #15
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The properties of conversion or charming never, ever have appeared associated with Haleyn’s Rampart.

    In fact that artifact is not mentioned in the BRCS (I don't know why I missed adding it in - maybe because it is located in the Book of Priestcraft).

    The text in the BoP (pg 118-119) about it give a clue as to why it should be in the PC's hands:

    Its finders are, without exception, virtuous people in need of aid, and nearly all have become champions of some kind against tyranny and injustice. Always, when its work is done, the Rampart vanishes.
    It does say that speculation exists that the shield can function differently depending on the needs of its current owner.

    So it is up to you, the DM, to determine why this artifact came to its present owner and then figure out how it should function.

    Personally I don't think it should be to reunite the church. In fact some of the text in BoP talks about vaporizing a scion of the Avan line who claimed the Iron Throne inappropriately.

    So it seems to me that a strong potential exists that the role of the PC is to find the true Emporer who deserves to sit on the Iron Throne and then give him the rampart.

    Maybe seeking out the Sword of Roele.

    Perhaps it is a sign to the PC that he should become a paladin instead of a cleric and take a more "forceful" look at things.

    Noting that paladins of Haelyn are granted a great deal of leeway throughout Anuire - independent of the particular sect they belong to.

    Just thought - but the bottom line is that you need to determine why the Rampart appeared and what the goal of its appearance is, not the player.

    IMO it is time for dreams for the PC. . . . .
    Duane Eggert

  6. #16
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Assuming that Haelyn wants to see his churches re-unite, etc, etc, saying that the Shield allows one of the following sounds reasonable:

    1. +2 on contest actions against another faith
    2. +2 on create/rule temple holdings
    3. Allow a free action to rule a temple holding everytime that you successfully contest a temple holding down a level (free in the sense of it doesn't take an action, it still costs gold and RP).

    Those all give your PC an advantage to building his new super church, but do so within the rules while rewarding the long quest. I'd note that several other priests might well go on their own quests - and either join him or become rivals of equal religious merit, some may have done so years ago or even repeatedly thus becoming truly saintly...

    Similarly he might have a bonus on actions from the area he used to hold - as long as his followers weren't purged by the hierarchy.

    Remember though that:

    1. There are lots of holy relics, even though most aren't magical - his competitiors can also wave their 'holy' stuff and argue from holy texts against his point of view.
    2. Haelyn does still recognise his competitors - and they can prove it.
    3. Just because he hears a voice in his head saying 'I'm Haelyn, go out and do X' doesn't mean that it's Haelyn talking - Talinie has a fervent Haelynite who is actually serving Eloele for example.
    4. The quest might well 'win him a bonus' - a great Captain event to take a few holdings, etc but it shouldn't 'win him the game' - and once he is properly playing the game of thrones there are rules available to cover conversion already present - contest does not need to mean slash and burn and probably very rarely does!

    As for charms, I'd say that Haelyn is, in general, heavily against mind-controlling magic. Dominating and enslaving people's free will, breaking their sworn oaths of service through sorcery, etc, etc - not exactly his cup of tea. In honourable nobility one accepts service freely offered, one does not steal it, and similarly He does not welcome his servants to be dominated by sorcery after long and faithful service. So a spell to convert holdings is possible, but probably barred to a Haelinite priest.

    I'd emphasize that lots of people will take an interest in the crusade, possibly fatally so. That includes not just awnies, but also nobles, guilds, other faiths (within and without Haelyn's church), other gods, etc. Just as appointing yourself emperor when taking control of your first province is hazardous to your health, so it appointing yourself supreme pontiff of all Anuire.

  7. #17
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Considering that Haelyn is opposed to enchantment and charm magic is non-Anuirean, his relic would not have such powers.

    Ius Hibernicum, in nomine juris. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

  8. #18
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    First I need to say that although I was initially quite hesitant to bring up my situation with this player character in these forums, I’ve been blown away by the in-depth knowledge and supportive suggestions.

    And know for some further responses….

    “Why should the Rampart be in the PC’s hands?”

    Well, as the DM I looked at that exact same quote from the BOP and decided that the PC was a “virtuous person in need of aid” (as defined by Haelyn) and would indeed vanish once the task (bringing the entire truth of Haelyn’s teachings into the “true” church) was complete. So, in theory, the PC would tell his grand tale of receiving Haelyn’s blessing s (through dreams and the appearance of the shield) convert followers, and begin to “rebuild” the church of old. Now I do need to say that the idea that all of the sects of Haelyn has a portion of the truth but not the entire truth came from multiple role-playing sessions and a very well reasoned argument by the PC. I just used the whole thing to my advantage to create the “holy quest.” It is still very much my intention that once the PC establishes a stronger presence, in terms of holdings, and integrates himself into the game mechanics, the shield will vanish.

    As for vaporizing the scion of Avanil, I would say that was due to using the shield as a means to an end that would not be associated with a virtuous person in need of aid and yes, I have thought about how the use of the shield could be a means to finding someone appropriate for the throne. Problem is, I don’t feel any of the current PCs would be much of an Emperor. I’d have to come up with a pretty impressive NPC they all could support…but that’s another story.

    I do like the idea of giving bonuses for certain action which are connected to the shield. That would further entice this PC to learn the game mechanics, albeit with a specific advantage. The more I read about the “Great Captain” event, the more I think it could be slightly modified to the situation to speed up the process, at least in terms of how many congregations he could contact and attempt to bring over to his side.

    Thanks for the emphasis on what Haelyn would or would not do in terms of magical charms. That’s one point I will drive home pretty hard and I’ve already started to build a list of the many individuals, and deities, that will most definitely not support a reunification effort for Haelyn’s churches.

  9. #19
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    We're happy to help, Grinster

    Ius Hibernicum, in nomine juris. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    After 1500 odd years, and at least 500 of fragmentation, the time is certainly ripe for a new messiah to come forth. The book of laws may be out of date and need a new testament, or at least some new interpretation, certainly the OIT may still be literal, but all the others felt the need for some interpretation after all.

    I was wondering what Haelyn's Aegis thought of the Rampart being active - check the dictionary defination of Aegis to see why they might be either very receptive or very opposed to someone wielding his shield!

    If your guy wants to rule a domain - and being the new messiah certainly fits the bill - then learning at least some of the rules is a must - frankly it's only 1 chapter really. You can always tell him that he can have a bonus of some sorts, and it's up to him where he wants it.

    Great captain is fine, but generally the vent doesn't last - perhaps until the WIT makes it's roll (finds a proper artifiact, counter arugment, etc) he can glomph one level a season from the WIT - but expect them to make passing the roll a high priority, no-one ignores a GC!

    One idea that might be worth playing with if things go bad is the ehrsheghlien transformation, particularly if your PC is crucified, blinded, otheriwse maimed, etc - I had a holy warrior meld into their armour after being near killed to become 'the Paladin' in one of my fluff bits and there are several other 'holy' icons that could be used to personify the blood of the gods embracing one truly of their own and justify an amazing recovery. It depends how far your player wants his character to go down the my word is the word of god road and how much trouble the PC gets into, very few medieval nobles would have welcomed the creation of a pope if the pope had never existed!

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