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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheal View Post
    These numbers are not so low, if we take in consideration actual size of Anuire (less than Western Europe, iirc), rolling grasslands of Elinie and Coeranys, desolace of Chimaeron and Baruk-Azhik and forests and moors of Dhoesone. Three elven kingdoms, neglected Five Peaks, Talinie, ravaged by elements and neighbours - list can go on. IMO 1,5-2,5 million of people for Anuire is believable enough. 13-15 millions of people for 15-16 c. means big or highly civilised and packed by people country. Many lesser powers in Anuire have not much in the terms of industrial power and agricultural might.

    just my 2 coppers
    The problem is how to explain that two provinces of level 1 (1000 population each) could field the same number of troops than a province of level 2 that as 4000 population.
    Maybe 10000 for province +10000 for each level above 1 is a good compromise.Then as exception 5000 base for elves and less populated human provinces?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by vota dc View Post
    The problem is how to explain that two provinces of level 1 (1000 population each) could field the same number of troops than a province of level 2 that as 4000 population.
    Maybe 10000 for province +10000 for each level above 1 is a good compromise.Then as exception 5000 base for elves and less populated human provinces?
    I had considered that option, too.

    Gheal, in most discussions I can recall about population sizes and land masses, Anuire has been likened to France in size. Through the Renaissance period, IIRC France had a pop around 20 million. So <13 million is still a bit low. Recall that according to 2e, provinces were about 30 or 40 miles square (900-1600square miles). Population densities of 70-120 per square mile were pretty common even from Roman times through Renaissance. Take easy math at the low end of province size (1000sqmi) and multiply by the low end of pop (70/sqmi) and 70,000 people per province should be the low end. That fits with my suggested method of 50k + 10k per pop level.

    So now you know the assumptions I was working off of

  3. #13
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    Yes, Anuire is small - the size of France.

    Also, population density in Anuire is much much lower than in RW Europe. A lvl 4-6 province has a pop density of 10-40 people/square miles. And that doesn't take into account all the province with a lvl less than 4...

    This is nowhere near what you are looking for.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  4. #14
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    I suspect that Rjurik places like Hogunmark are even lower density, or at least less urbanised. I would take them as the benchmark of what a low population means and then work your way up to the City of Anuire to be equivalent to Paris or London etc around 1400.

    The problem with province levels is that they represent so much:
    * population levels
    * commerce levels
    * industry levels
    * how developed the land is (vs source potential)
    etc etc

    Level 0 means there is no real sense of society or organisation in the area except the odd family-based group but it doesn't mean no-one lives there.

    Sorontar

  5. #15
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Given that Anuire is a relatively homogeneous and small area that has been settled for 20 centuries, I'd say that infrastructure/industry/commerce etc. is fairly uniform throughout entire region.

    That leave total population as the only real variable when it comes to province level.

    Sure, there can be some exceptions, but as a general rule I'd stick with the above.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  6. #16
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    According to this page http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...Military_units a unit is 128 soldiers.So Ghoere army (18 units) has 2304 soldiers.For a 128000 population is enough for medieval age,but with the compromise system,that is 800000 population is a very little army.
    If we use the compromise we should also change the size of the units.

  7. #17
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    IIRC, during the early industrial age, when Total War had become a possibility (an economic and military revolution allowing much larger proportions of the population to be engaged in warfare), France still only organized armies of 1 man for every 125 people. On the other end, Prussia had an extremely efficient militaristic society and engaged 1 in 25.

    I think 1 in 100 is a reasonable rule of thumb. But you must consider that this would include the entire treasury tapped out, plus extensive loans, plus all the levies called up.

    Ghoere's 2304 easily-maintained standing army is way too high for a population of 128,000. It's more doable for a population of 800,000. Call up all the levies and tap out all resources and finance the war, and I bet Ghoere could easily call up units such as would greatly exceed 8000, and thus greatly exceed the 1 in 100 rule of thumb.

  8. #18
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    At 12:02 PM 8/3/2009, Rowan wrote:

    >IIRC, during the early industrial age, when Total War had become a possibility (an economic and military revolution allowing much larger proportions of the population to be engaged in warfare), France still only organized armies of 1 man for every 125 people. On the other end, Prussia had an extremely efficient militaristic society and engaged 1 in 25.
    >
    >I think 1 in 100 is a reasonable rule of thumb. But you must consider that this would include the entire treasury tapped out, plus extensive loans, plus all the levies called up.


    There are a lot of these kinds of numbers out there in the historiography world, so one should be a little cautious in using them as the basis of any analysis. I`ve heard some numbers as high as 10% of the population in "military" positions (which was defined as both front-line and support troops) for war periods. Other folks point out that in certain societies (pastoral nomads) nearly every able bodied man is considered a warrior, and just about every other member of the culture could be considered what we might want to call logistics and support. Then there are issues with the difference between a standing army and the sort of permanent reservists who can be called up to serve during the "war season" but expect to return home for agrarian work with their families for most of the year, but who may wind up serving for longer than is under many feudal systems considered their obligation.

    >Ghoere`s 2304 easily-maintained standing army is way too high for a population of 128,000. It`s more doable for a population of 800,000. Call up all the levies and tap out all resources and finance the war, and I bet Ghoere could easily call up units such as would greatly exceed 8000, and thus greatly exceed the 1 in 100 rule of thumb.


    One of the assumptions that people (myself included) usually make when looking at the BR system of large scale combat is that the units represent full-time soldiers. But do we really need to make that assumption? It does, at first blush, look like that, but couldn`t we just assume that the abstraction of the warcard/units is really a core of officers and sergeants, maybe just 12-15 men) while the majority of soldiers are called up in a sort of endless revolving series of recruitment and release? Actual war moves might include the soldiers being pressed into service, equipped, battered into some sort of military shape, etc.

    Gary
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 08-04-2009 at 12:50 AM.
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  9. #19
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    I didn't bring up the nomads and barbarian types because I wanted to stick with Anuire's civilization.

    For agrarian civilizations, a lot depends on what time period/tech level you place them in. Total war required very organized and powerful centralized governments, reliable abundant crops, and major industrial production of materiel. I don't think Anuire's quite there, but I do like placing it well into Renaissance periods where landowners and nobility paid sufficient scutage to hire professional soldiers in their place. So I think full time armies is an acceptable abstraction. I believe the Roman infantry was similarly full-time for a good part of Rome's history.

    I'd love to play a more medieval period with shorter seasons of warfare and the logistical issues that entails, but default BR rules don't accommodate that well. Your description of rotating soldiers comes close to allowing it with default rules, but is still a bit problematic (why keep rotating--why not let them stand down for a season or two? For those called up in Spring and Fall, how can they make a livelihood if they can't plant or harvest?). I've considered a number of rules variations to reflect limited service, but I haven't been able to play them yet

    If we're going with full time, year-round soldiers, and we're looking to inform total population levels and vice versa, I think 1% of the population as an average, tapped-out, front-line military is a good rule of thumb. The other major demographic rule of thumb we typically operate under is that only 10% of the population lives in proper towns and cities, so 1% ready for military service seems well in perspective.

    Ghoere is the most populous realm by any measure (40 province levels). I believe its wartime income could easily be around 110GB. It's 18 unit standing army might cost around 36GB if active. With wartime deficits (and using the treasury for Musters and actions), another 60-80 units of various types could be supported, active. That's some 7500-10000 men. Tapped out, 40 units of levies would represent at least 6000 more men. Thus it's possible for Ghoere at the beginning of a game to raise some 18,000 men for a season of heavy warfare, or sustain around 10,000 for a few seasons. That's way too many if the population is only 100-200,000. It's quite reasonable if the population is closer to 1-2 million. And keep in mind that by Ruling a few province levels, linking up a bunch of trade routes, and getting the Temples and Guilds almost fully behind you, and taking out loans, that army size is just a starting point. And, those figures were for active militaries; a smaller field army could be maintained with many more garrisoned reserves from which to field replacements.
    Last edited by Rowan; 08-04-2009 at 01:58 AM.

  10. #20
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    Ghoere has 50 GB income and it is already a militaristic realm with a big army:a X4 mobilization is nearly impossible,however you can reach a X2 easily.

    However the classic system fails in other reigns.For example Chimaeron is an unpopulated reign (only 16000) but has 768 soldiers (5 irregulars and 1 mercenary infantry),that means 4,8%....a huge standing army.
    Medoere has the same problem...and also...if Medoere is 21000 population,how it can get more troops than Endier that has 30000?
    Classic system fails because too much gap between province levels.

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