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  1. #1
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    Population convention

    I am not adding nothing of new for the wiki.Just want to make a population convention to avoid confusion:you could use this topic to decide the population...for now I reported the current realms population of the wiki.

    Aerenwe 450000
    Alamie 107500
    Avanil 167000
    Baruk-Azhik 75000
    Boeruine 200000
    Brosengae ?
    Cariele 295000
    Chimaeron ?
    Coeranys 310000
    Dhoesone 250000
    Diemed 375000
    Elinie ?
    Endier 72000
    Five Peaks ?
    Gorgon's Crown 111500
    Ghoere 860000
    Ilien 80000
    Imperial City 137500
    Markazor 320000
    Medoere 145000
    Mhoried ?
    Mieres 47000
    Mur-Kilad 170000
    Osoerde 230000
    Rhuobhe ?
    Roesone 325000
    Sielwode ?
    Spiderfell ?
    Taeghas 405700
    Taline 280000
    Thurazor ?
    Tuarhievel 81450
    Tuornen 68000


    My opinion is that-for example-Taeghas can't have more than twice the population of Avanil.We should lower Taeghas or increase Avanil?Well,maybe an increase is better,else we should even lower the non anuirean page (Muden have more than 1 million of people).
    There is of course another problem:I read that Ruobhe population is very low even for a 2 level province....population shoud be different for level and race?

  2. #2
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Just to avoid old arguments being treated as new, the wiki has a short description of the various interpretations of what "population" is at http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Population .

    Of course, this still doesn't answer the issue of how big the population of one area should be when compared to another.

    Sorontar

  3. #3
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    At 09:59 PM 7/29/2009, vota dc wrote:

    >There is of course another problem:I read that Ruobhe population is
    >very low even for a 2 level province....population shoud be
    >different for level and race?

    From what I can tell that province should have a population of
    4-7... unless one is counting elves as "magical beasts" (and, thus,
    part of the source potential of the province) for the purpose of
    "population levels."

    Gary

  4. #4
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    What method are you using? The 2e pop tables, the 10,000 per province level, or some other?

    Not sure how you ended up with more pop for Taeghas than Avanil, when Avanil has 37 province levels (none below 3) and Taeghas has 23.

    I know the method is contentious, Sorontar, but what about pursuing a compromise method? One that maybe starts with a base level of habitation (like Kgauck's approach) and adjusts on top of that for province level?

    The simplest form of this might look like saying that each settled province (about 1000 square miles) has a base population of 50,000. Every province level on top of this adds 10,000, representing both some additional population, but also largely level of organization and economic productivity. Then people can scale that base number up or down depending on what they think is appropriate, adding in whatever modifiers they wish.

    I mention other modifiers because some things still would warrant adjustment to make sense. A few parts of Anuire are considered "frontier," and a few would be characterized as more heavily settled, having been civilized for a very long time. You could let province levels bear this out or adjust the base number for these. Also, as noted, Elves seem to have a sparser population, and the Brecht seem to have far too many province levels, even having provinces specifically described as being all but uninhabited and yet being level 3 or so.

    Anyway, adding a base of 50,000 per province would give Anuire (~150 provinces) a population of something like 7.5 million, plus maybe 4.5 million from the other population levels, or 12 million. It's a starting point and compromise method, anyway. I might adjust it by setting the base for Frontier areas at 10,000 (Erebannien, Dhoesone, perhaps some provinces of Mieres, Coeranys, Roesone, Mhoried, and Talinie) and giving racial modifiers like Elves at 10,000 base, Dwarves at 40,000, Brecht at 40,000, Khinasi at 40,000, Goblins at 80,000. This would be mostly academic, since it wouldn't have any impact on Domain collections, but it could be worked in via any mechanism that limits total possible military sizes or resilience to random events/recovery from province level loss.

    Hope this doesn't derail the thread too much. Looks like the OP was trying to find a standard method for determining population.

  5. #5
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    This should be the population....if someone want a more populated Anuire should multiply this values,but the ratio shouldn't change.

    Aerenwe 74000
    Alamie 55000
    Avanil 128000
    Baruk-Azhik 54000
    Boeruine 132000
    Brosengae 30000
    Cariele 47000
    Chimaeron 16000
    Coeranys 46000
    Dhoesone 42000
    Diemed 78000
    Elinie 53000
    Endier 30000
    Five Peaks 49000
    Gorgon's Crown 65000
    Ghoere 128000
    Ilien 40000
    Imperial City 100000
    Markazor 46000
    Medoere 21000
    Mhoried 87000
    Mieres 47000
    Mur-Kilad 27000
    Osoerde 44000
    Rhuobhe 4000
    Roesone 49000
    Sielwode 77000
    Spiderfell 0 / 20000
    Taeghas 67000
    Taline 47000
    Thurazor 42000
    Tuarhievel 66000
    Tuornen 60000

  6. #6
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    Please record what method you used. It doesn't look like any I've seen. It's less than the BRCS 3.x, which is itself less than the 2e material. At least, that's going off of the one easy realm I checked:
    Brosengae, 3 level 4s by either measure should be at least 40,000 (you list at 30,000)

    2e:
    0 = <1000
    1-3 = 2000-10000
    4-6 = 10000-40000
    7+ = higher, to 100000

    3.x:
    0 = 0
    1 = 1000
    2 = 4000
    3 = 7000

    4 = 10000
    5 = 20000
    6 = 30000

    7 = 40000
    8 = 60000
    9 = 80000
    10 = 100000


    By your calcs, 1,318,000 humans in Anuire. Man that's low...

  7. #7
    Member Agelmore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vota dc View Post
    This should be the population....if someone want a more populated Anuire should multiply this values,but the ratio shouldn't change.

    [numbers snipped]
    These numbers assume that each province have exactly the population of citizens - corresponding to its province rating - indicated in chapter five in our rules (Table 5-2).

    Since a level province can be changed in one month by a single domain action, we can consider that some provinces are close to their next province rating level whereas some other provinces have just reach their current rating.

    Therefore, I think population of citizens used for a single province when calculating realm population of citizen have to be the average of population between population for the current province rating and population for the next province ration.
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 08-06-2009 at 09:05 PM.
    Agelmore Tallow, Lord Prefect of Alamier (MA;Br,Major,21;LG)

  8. #8
    Junior Member Urban fox's Avatar
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    Alamie seems to have too small a population too given its a heartland realm with 9 provinces.

    Also given the fact that Tuornen fears that Alamie will reclaim their lands, you'd expect that Alamie would have a real manpower edge over the Tuors.


    Boeruine and Avanil would be near even, I find it odd that Boeruine seems to have quite a bit more than Avanil...
    Last edited by Urban fox; 07-30-2009 at 06:26 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    What method are you using? The 2e pop tables, the 10,000 per province level, or some other?

    Not sure how you ended up with more pop for Taeghas than Avanil, when Avanil has 37 province levels (none below 3) and Taeghas has 23.

    [quote continues]
    I simply reported the population on wiki.I guess more methods are been used.
    Now I already made a population with the classic system,and I will try to use the compromise method.
    So---1 level anuirean province = 50000,2 level 60000...10 level = 140000
    Goblin = 80000,dwarves = 40000,elves and exception = 10000

    Aerenwe 320000
    Alamie 580000 (500000 if you consider Sorelies and Nortmoor as frontier)
    Avanil 730000
    Baruk-Azhik 340000
    Boeruine 720000
    Brosengae 240000
    Cariele 250000
    Chimaeron 380000 (220000 if the eastern provinces as frontier,if all 100000)
    City of Anuire 140000
    Coeranys 480000 (320000 with north and east as frontier)
    Dhoesone 220000
    Diemed 420000
    Elinie 360000 (north as frontier)
    Endier 100000
    Five Peaks 700000 (all goblins-maybe should be fixed)
    Gorgon's Crown 820000 (goblin rule with exception sideath+province that border with non anuirean realms)
    Ghoere 800000
    Ilien 110000
    Imperial City 140000
    Markazor 690000
    Medoere 210000
    Mhoried 600000 (only 10000 for each north province)
    Mieres 470000 (inner provinces with 10000)
    Mur-Kilad 140000
    Osoerde 450000 (the two all swamp provinces with 10000)
    Rhuobhe 20000
    Roesone 450000
    Sielwode 240000
    Spiderfell 130000
    Taeghas 550000
    Taline 380000 (10000 for the provinces that border with Thurazor)
    Thurazor 600000
    Tuarhievel 220000
    Tuornen 550000 (450000 if 10000 for the provinces that border with Rhuobhe)

    Anuire 12930000 with the lowest population
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 08-06-2009 at 09:06 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    By your calcs, 1,318,000 humans in Anuire. Man that's low...
    These numbers are not so low, if we take in consideration actual size of Anuire (less than Western Europe, iirc), rolling grasslands of Elinie and Coeranys, desolace of Chimaeron and Baruk-Azhik and forests and moors of Dhoesone. Three elven kingdoms, neglected Five Peaks, Talinie, ravaged by elements and neighbours - list can go on. IMO 1,5-2,5 million of people for Anuire is believable enough. 13-15 millions of people for 15-16 c. means big or highly civilised and packed by people country. Many lesser powers in Anuire have not much in the terms of industrial power and agricultural might.

    just my 2 coppers

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