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05-03-2002, 12:24 AM #1
I`ve been reading a lot about medieval festivals and tournaments lately,
and it occurs to me that the size, scope, importance and purpose of these
events are really much broader and significant than is portrayed by any of
the current domain actions or random events. Agitate, for instance, is
probably the closest domain action possible to portray a tournament put on
by a domain ruler, but that action does very little to describe many of the
social, economic and military affects that festivals and tournaments can
and did have. The Festival random event only has negative domain level
effects possible, completely ignoring the influx of trade, ideas, news and
information, etc. that were largely the function of medieval festivals and
fairs. Aside from that, I`m talking about festivals on a grander scale
than the Festival random event description talks about, so not only should
they be a bigger deal than a random event, but they shouldn`t be random at all.
Right now I`m thinking there should be two actions. A Festival action,
which would be an abstraction of any province wide celebration, and a
Tournament action which would have various military effects. I`m just at
the brainstorming stage, but the Festival action would focus mostly on
economics and prestige. That could have the effect of an Agitate action
(with a different level of difficulty and probably only effecting the host
province) but would also serve as a brief but profitable trade
route--something like Exploratory Trade.
Because of their role tournaments could provide a bonus not only to
attempts to improve existing units, but also to mustering new ones. There
is also an excellent opportunity to rid oneself of troublesome nobles
during a tournament, and the vast amounts of money spent on equipping
participants had to go somewhere. Some amount of that revenue could easily
find its way into a regent`s coffers. On the other hand, tournaments could
be very expensive to host, so any potential money earned should have a
similar opportunity to lose one`s shirt (or hauberk as the case may be.)
Lastly, both events have diplomatic and espionage opportunities
galore--both negative and positive possible for the noble. Rivalries will
spring up, alliances form, heroes rise from obscurity, and crowd favorites
trampled into the dust. The range of "gamesmanship" opportunities and
ruthless competition are rampant. It`s a beauty pageant where the talent
portion of the competition means beating the tar out of the other contestants.
Now, I`m not so much concerned about the history of festivals and
tournaments here. I`ve got that down pretty well. My question is how
might you guys interpret affects of festivals and tournaments at the realm
level?
What kind of revenue might a festival bring in?
How much cheaper and/or easier might it be to muster a unit if knights if
one has a tourney and they all come along and display their skill?
What would the loyalty reaction (if any) of the host population be?
How would other regents in the same province react to the event? Might
they profit incidentally or would they necessarily be harmed by the
event? (Historically, the Church was very opposed to tournaments, but this
was a relatively rare area of medieval life in which the Church`s
objections went largely ignored. In Cerilia, of course, we have a vastly
different religious structure from medieval Christianity, and it occurs to
me that many if not most of the temples of Cerilia would support such
events.)
What about the trade, espionage and diplomatic possibilities of a festival
or tournament?
Gary
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05-03-2002, 03:28 AM #2
Time is short, so just a few thoughts now, and more over the weekend desert.
How specific with festival and tournaments do you want to get? I really get
into this kind of thing (see my Festivals of the Land on BR.net) and could
see different F&T for different holdings, religions, and cultures.
Both need to be repeated often, because their effect seems to be temporary,
but they also don`t stack well. You can`t have an Easter in March and again
in April with the same effect both times. F&T are two different things, so
you could have Easter in March and a Tournament in April.
The Agitate action seems to be embedded in this new action, so this should
probabaly do more things and cost more to produce. Gary mentions
possibilities for information, favor towards the host ruler, money,
diplomacy, and espionage. Other effects might be more specific to holdings
and cultures.
Impress Me - let`s say that part one of the F&T is the issue of who is being
impressed. The host ruler can attempt to impress his subjects (Agitate) or
some other ruler (Diplomacy).
What`s It All About - lets say that another part of the F&T centers on the
kind of activity that goes on. Does it tend to produce money (and so
involve many nameless folk) or cost money (and so involve many intriguing
types). Bonus GB`s or an Espionage Action.
Yes, and Also - Useful information, unit improvement, and other effects
might be other options as varied as the minds of the rulers themselves.
An action that allowed two actions at the same time would be mighty
attractive, but you could rule that a F or T was such a big undertaking that
both a ruler and his Lt need to be involved to pull it off, or a ruler could
spend two turns in preperation. The minor effects are a bonus.
I might have a Tournament to celebrate the marriage of my son to the
daughter of the Eorl of Saerskaap. I select a diplomacy option to win favor
with the Eorl, and an espionage action to locate a purchasable member of the
Eorl`s court and buy myself a courtier to keep me updated on the activities
if the Eorl`s court. As a side benefit I want to find some really good
archers to form the basis of a new unit of Archers.
That`s all for now.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-03-2002, 08:25 AM #3
At 10:18 PM 5/2/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>How specific with festival and tournaments do you want to get? I really
>get into this kind of thing (see my Festivals of the Land on BR.net) and
>could see different F&T for different holdings, religions, and cultures.
>
>Both need to be repeated often, because their effect seems to be
>temporary, but they also don`t stack well. You can`t have an Easter in
>March and again in April with the same effect both times. F&T are two
>different things, so you could have Easter in March and a Tournament in April.
I usually go for generalized domain actions which allow for as much
variation as possible in their role-playing interpretation. An abstracted,
multi-purpose Festival action with several different and optional effects
would allow for a regent to perform any specific type of festival using the
same action description.
>The Agitate action seems to be embedded in this new action, so this should
>probabaly do more things and cost more to produce. Gary mentions
>possibilities for information, favor towards the host ruler, money,
>diplomacy, and espionage. Other effects might be more specific to holdings
>and cultures.
>
>Impress Me - let`s say that part one of the F&T is the issue of who is
>being impressed. The host ruler can attempt to impress his subjects
>(Agitate) or some other ruler (Diplomacy).
>
>What`s It All About - lets say that another part of the F&T centers on the
>kind of activity that goes on. Does it tend to produce money (and so
>involve many nameless folk) or cost money (and so involve many intriguing
>types). Bonus GB`s or an Espionage Action.
>
>Yes, and Also - Useful information, unit improvement, and other effects
>might be other options as varied as the minds of the rulers themselves.
>
>An action that allowed two actions at the same time would be mighty
>attractive, but you could rule that a F or T was such a big undertaking
>that both a ruler and his Lt need to be involved to pull it off, or a
>ruler could spend two turns in preperation. The minor effects are a bonus.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a Festival
or Tournament action having two or maybe three domain level effects. It
could require more than one domain action (or a domain action and a LT
action together) but I`m leaning more towards an action that gives two or
more effects, but at a greater RP and/or GB cost, in a more limited area,
and/or a higher DC. A standard Agitate action should have a substantially
easier DC because that`s a more concentrated form of the activity, but a
Festival might create an Agitate action at the same difficulty as an
Agitate action +X, as well as a short term trade route at another
difficulty level, and/or a Diplomacy action with a higher DC than the
standard Diplomacy. RP and GB costs could be based on what actions the
regent performing the Festival or Tournament wanted to engage in. There
might also be an automatic "random event" that would be the result of a
critical failure in any of those actions. (Critical failures in domain
actions is a general concept I`m starting to like more and more too.)
>I might have a Tournament to celebrate the marriage of my son to the
>daughter of the Eorl of Saerskaap. I select a diplomacy option to win
>favor with the Eorl, and an espionage action to locate a purchasable
>member of the Eorl`s court and buy myself a courtier to keep me updated on
>the activities if the Eorl`s court. As a side benefit I want to find some
>really good archers to form the basis of a new unit of Archers.
The specific inspiration for tournaments could be huge a wide ranging. Any
role-playing reason the player can come up with (or even "because I`m the
Duke, and I`d like to watch knights pummel each other for a while, anyone
object to that?") seems reasonable to me. It`s a big, gory party, man, and
that`s enough justification for most folks.
Right now, I`m thinking the actual game mechanic(s) that one could perform
using a Tournament action might be much like the above Festival action in
that there are two to four possible emphasis (mustering troops, improving
existing units, an espionage action, loyalty shifts, etc.) with the regent
deciding which he wants to focus upon and paying requisite costs.
Gary
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05-03-2002, 08:53 AM #4
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I introduced a "Party" domain action to represent this.
In a party action, each participating regent can spend Gb for the greater
glory, but no more GB than the number of particpating regents. So, if you
alone hold a party, you can spend 1 GB; if you and a friend hold a party,
you can spend two, and so on.
Each regent then receives 1d6 Regency Points for each GB spent.
A large party of this kind can involve hundreds of GB. I introduced this
for Sword and Crown; about fifty regents spendig around ten GB each works
out to a VERY big party, generating huge amounts of glory (RP).
/Carl
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05-03-2002, 10:49 AM #5
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Hello!
Gary wrote:
> ...
> What kind of revenue might a festival bring in?
For the landed regent holding it? None.
For a guilder, holding a bazaar next to it? :-)
Maybe the same as TRADE SERVICES?
> How much cheaper and/or easier might it be to muster a unit if knights if
> one has a tourney and they all come along and display their skill?
None at all. Aren´t all knights already in the service of someone? Else
they wouldn´t be knights at all.
Knights are no mercenaries, whom you can hire when they participate in
your tournament.
> What would the loyalty reaction (if any) of the host population be?
random +/- 1? After all if the foreign black knight massacres the local
hero-knight in a tournament, then the local populace isn´t too happy
about it.
all IMHO
bye
Michael
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05-03-2002, 12:30 PM #6
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 4:50 AM
> > How much cheaper and/or easier might it be to muster a unit if knights
if
> > one has a tourney and they all come along and display their skill?
>
> None at all. Aren´t all knights already in the service of someone? Else
> they wouldn´t be knights at all.
> Knights are no mercenaries, whom you can hire when they participate in
> your tournament.
Knights are technically in someone`s service, but some knights do hire
themselves out when their lord isn`t commanding them to be elsewhere. Such
a "free lance" is available to fight for pay. Its also possible, if so
inclined, to recall Germany and declare that there are Imperial Knights
whose obligation is to the Emperor. The fact that there isn`t one makes
them freelancers.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-03-2002, 08:50 PM #7
At 07:04 AM 5/3/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > > How much cheaper and/or easier might it be to muster a unit if
> knights if
> > > one has a tourney and they all come along and display their skill?
> >
> > None at all. Aren´t all knights already in the service of someone? Else
> > they wouldn´t be knights at all.
> > Knights are no mercenaries, whom you can hire when they participate in
> > your tournament.
>
>Knights are technically in someone`s service, but some knights do hire
>themselves out when their lord isn`t commanding them to be
>elsewhere. Such a "free lance" is available to fight for pay. Its also
>possible, if so inclined, to recall Germany and declare that there are
>Imperial Knights whose obligation is to the Emperor. The fact that there
>isn`t one makes them freelancers.
Yes, it was quite common for knights to seek patronage at tournament. I
shouldn`t have used the term "knights" there, though. I prefer the term
"heavy cavalry" instead, but I meant knights only as an example. A
tournament might attract men-at-arms and adventurers of all types so
cavalry, archers or elite infantry could easily be justified. Other
companies could also be put together just as easily from those who do not
necessarily "make the cut" into the more prestigious units since they are
also in the province (and will generally have less funds available to them)
than the victors.
Gary
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05-03-2002, 09:09 PM #8
At 09:44 AM 5/3/2002 +0200, Carl Cramér wrote:
>I introduced a "Party" domain action to represent this.
>
>In a party action, each participating regent can spend Gb for the greater
>glory, but no more GB than the number of particpating regents. So, if you
>alone hold a party, you can spend 1 GB; if you and a friend hold a party,
>you can spend two, and so on.
>
>Each regent then receives 1d6 Regency Points for each GB spent.
That`s a fairly liberal exchange rate. It does take 4RP to make 1GB using
Alchemy (not to mention access to a source(3), 1GB for components and
wizard powers) but using this kind of exchange a wizard regent could "get
lucky" and actually create RP by spending them to get GB at 4:1 then
getting them back by spending those same GB to get RP at up to 1:6.
In general, I think RP are more valuable than GB, though that will depend
quite a bit on the nature and circumstances of the campaign. Whichever is
more valuable, however, I don`t think there should be anything like a 1:1
(or better) exchange rate between them. There should always be a "net
loss" when using one for the other.
Gary
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05-03-2002, 09:33 PM #9
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 3:30 PM
> Yes, it was quite common for knights to seek patronage at tournament.
Continuing in this line, it occurs to me you could use a tournament to find
a specific kind of lieutenant. You want someone with a billion archery
feats, hold an archery tournament. Want a classical knight, hold a joust.
Bards will respond to a contest.
Festivals might be more appropriate for spellcasters. Celebrate the Eve of
the Dead to find a priest of Nesirie. Haelyn`s Festival or the Day of
Ascent for priests of Haelyn. The autumnal equinox for priests of Ruornil
or devoted mages. And so on.
Organizations or realms that like to maintain a low profile could hold T or
F, but precautions would be required, such as false pretenses, invitation
only events, or front organizations. A guilder could hold a festival
ostensibly to raise loyalty, but in fact he`s looking for skilled cutpurses.
Just some elaboration there.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-03-2002, 10:14 PM #10
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There is also a base cost of the action, and you have to spend an action
doing it. Then you have to convince people to show up, because there is
always the risk of treachery. All in all, I find it works fine.
/Carl
Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-05-03 22.42:
> At 09:44 AM 5/3/2002 +0200, Carl Cramér wrote:
>
>> I introduced a "Party" domain action to represent this.
>>
>> In a party action, each participating regent can spend Gb for the greater
>> glory, but no more GB than the number of particpating regents. So, if you
>> alone hold a party, you can spend 1 GB; if you and a friend hold a party,
>> you can spend two, and so on.
>>
>> Each regent then receives 1d6 Regency Points for each GB spent.
>
> That`s a fairly liberal exchange rate. It does take 4RP to make 1GB using
> Alchemy (not to mention access to a source(3), 1GB for components and
> wizard powers) but using this kind of exchange a wizard regent could "get
> lucky" and actually create RP by spending them to get GB at 4:1 then
> getting them back by spending those same GB to get RP at up to 1:6.
>
> In general, I think RP are more valuable than GB, though that will depend
> quite a bit on the nature and circumstances of the campaign. Whichever is
> more valuable, however, I don`t think there should be anything like a 1:1
> (or better) exchange rate between them. There should always be a "net
> loss" when using one for the other.
>
> Gary
>
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