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  1. #1
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    I`ve been reading a lot about medieval festivals and tournaments lately,
    and it occurs to me that the size, scope, importance and purpose of these
    events are really much broader and significant than is portrayed by any of
    the current domain actions or random events. Agitate, for instance, is
    probably the closest domain action possible to portray a tournament put on
    by a domain ruler, but that action does very little to describe many of the
    social, economic and military affects that festivals and tournaments can
    and did have. The Festival random event only has negative domain level
    effects possible, completely ignoring the influx of trade, ideas, news and
    information, etc. that were largely the function of medieval festivals and
    fairs. Aside from that, I`m talking about festivals on a grander scale
    than the Festival random event description talks about, so not only should
    they be a bigger deal than a random event, but they shouldn`t be random at all.

    Right now I`m thinking there should be two actions. A Festival action,
    which would be an abstraction of any province wide celebration, and a
    Tournament action which would have various military effects. I`m just at
    the brainstorming stage, but the Festival action would focus mostly on
    economics and prestige. That could have the effect of an Agitate action
    (with a different level of difficulty and probably only effecting the host
    province) but would also serve as a brief but profitable trade
    route--something like Exploratory Trade.

    Because of their role tournaments could provide a bonus not only to
    attempts to improve existing units, but also to mustering new ones. There
    is also an excellent opportunity to rid oneself of troublesome nobles
    during a tournament, and the vast amounts of money spent on equipping
    participants had to go somewhere. Some amount of that revenue could easily
    find its way into a regent`s coffers. On the other hand, tournaments could
    be very expensive to host, so any potential money earned should have a
    similar opportunity to lose one`s shirt (or hauberk as the case may be.)

    Lastly, both events have diplomatic and espionage opportunities
    galore--both negative and positive possible for the noble. Rivalries will
    spring up, alliances form, heroes rise from obscurity, and crowd favorites
    trampled into the dust. The range of "gamesmanship" opportunities and
    ruthless competition are rampant. It`s a beauty pageant where the talent
    portion of the competition means beating the tar out of the other contestants.

    Now, I`m not so much concerned about the history of festivals and
    tournaments here. I`ve got that down pretty well. My question is how
    might you guys interpret affects of festivals and tournaments at the realm
    level?

    What kind of revenue might a festival bring in?

    How much cheaper and/or easier might it be to muster a unit if knights if
    one has a tourney and they all come along and display their skill?

    What would the loyalty reaction (if any) of the host population be?

    How would other regents in the same province react to the event? Might
    they profit incidentally or would they necessarily be harmed by the
    event? (Historically, the Church was very opposed to tournaments, but this
    was a relatively rare area of medieval life in which the Church`s
    objections went largely ignored. In Cerilia, of course, we have a vastly
    different religious structure from medieval Christianity, and it occurs to
    me that many if not most of the temples of Cerilia would support such
    events.)

    What about the trade, espionage and diplomatic possibilities of a festival
    or tournament?

    Gary

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  2. #2
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Time is short, so just a few thoughts now, and more over the weekend desert.

    How specific with festival and tournaments do you want to get? I really get
    into this kind of thing (see my Festivals of the Land on BR.net) and could
    see different F&T for different holdings, religions, and cultures.

    Both need to be repeated often, because their effect seems to be temporary,
    but they also don`t stack well. You can`t have an Easter in March and again
    in April with the same effect both times. F&T are two different things, so
    you could have Easter in March and a Tournament in April.

    The Agitate action seems to be embedded in this new action, so this should
    probabaly do more things and cost more to produce. Gary mentions
    possibilities for information, favor towards the host ruler, money,
    diplomacy, and espionage. Other effects might be more specific to holdings
    and cultures.

    Impress Me - let`s say that part one of the F&T is the issue of who is being
    impressed. The host ruler can attempt to impress his subjects (Agitate) or
    some other ruler (Diplomacy).

    What`s It All About - lets say that another part of the F&T centers on the
    kind of activity that goes on. Does it tend to produce money (and so
    involve many nameless folk) or cost money (and so involve many intriguing
    types). Bonus GB`s or an Espionage Action.

    Yes, and Also - Useful information, unit improvement, and other effects
    might be other options as varied as the minds of the rulers themselves.

    An action that allowed two actions at the same time would be mighty
    attractive, but you could rule that a F or T was such a big undertaking that
    both a ruler and his Lt need to be involved to pull it off, or a ruler could
    spend two turns in preperation. The minor effects are a bonus.

    I might have a Tournament to celebrate the marriage of my son to the
    daughter of the Eorl of Saerskaap. I select a diplomacy option to win favor
    with the Eorl, and an espionage action to locate a purchasable member of the
    Eorl`s court and buy myself a courtier to keep me updated on the activities
    if the Eorl`s court. As a side benefit I want to find some really good
    archers to form the basis of a new unit of Archers.

    That`s all for now.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:18 PM 5/2/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >How specific with festival and tournaments do you want to get? I really
    >get into this kind of thing (see my Festivals of the Land on BR.net) and
    >could see different F&T for different holdings, religions, and cultures.
    >
    >Both need to be repeated often, because their effect seems to be
    >temporary, but they also don`t stack well. You can`t have an Easter in
    >March and again in April with the same effect both times. F&T are two
    >different things, so you could have Easter in March and a Tournament in April.

    I usually go for generalized domain actions which allow for as much
    variation as possible in their role-playing interpretation. An abstracted,
    multi-purpose Festival action with several different and optional effects
    would allow for a regent to perform any specific type of festival using the
    same action description.

    >The Agitate action seems to be embedded in this new action, so this should
    >probabaly do more things and cost more to produce. Gary mentions
    >possibilities for information, favor towards the host ruler, money,
    >diplomacy, and espionage. Other effects might be more specific to holdings
    >and cultures.
    >
    >Impress Me - let`s say that part one of the F&T is the issue of who is
    >being impressed. The host ruler can attempt to impress his subjects
    >(Agitate) or some other ruler (Diplomacy).
    >
    >What`s It All About - lets say that another part of the F&T centers on the
    >kind of activity that goes on. Does it tend to produce money (and so
    >involve many nameless folk) or cost money (and so involve many intriguing
    >types). Bonus GB`s or an Espionage Action.
    >
    >Yes, and Also - Useful information, unit improvement, and other effects
    >might be other options as varied as the minds of the rulers themselves.
    >
    >An action that allowed two actions at the same time would be mighty
    >attractive, but you could rule that a F or T was such a big undertaking
    >that both a ruler and his Lt need to be involved to pull it off, or a
    >ruler could spend two turns in preperation. The minor effects are a bonus.

    Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a Festival
    or Tournament action having two or maybe three domain level effects. It
    could require more than one domain action (or a domain action and a LT
    action together) but I`m leaning more towards an action that gives two or
    more effects, but at a greater RP and/or GB cost, in a more limited area,
    and/or a higher DC. A standard Agitate action should have a substantially
    easier DC because that`s a more concentrated form of the activity, but a
    Festival might create an Agitate action at the same difficulty as an
    Agitate action +X, as well as a short term trade route at another
    difficulty level, and/or a Diplomacy action with a higher DC than the
    standard Diplomacy. RP and GB costs could be based on what actions the
    regent performing the Festival or Tournament wanted to engage in. There
    might also be an automatic "random event" that would be the result of a
    critical failure in any of those actions. (Critical failures in domain
    actions is a general concept I`m starting to like more and more too.)

    >I might have a Tournament to celebrate the marriage of my son to the
    >daughter of the Eorl of Saerskaap. I select a diplomacy option to win
    >favor with the Eorl, and an espionage action to locate a purchasable
    >member of the Eorl`s court and buy myself a courtier to keep me updated on
    >the activities if the Eorl`s court. As a side benefit I want to find some
    >really good archers to form the basis of a new unit of Archers.

    The specific inspiration for tournaments could be huge a wide ranging. Any
    role-playing reason the player can come up with (or even "because I`m the
    Duke, and I`d like to watch knights pummel each other for a while, anyone
    object to that?") seems reasonable to me. It`s a big, gory party, man, and
    that`s enough justification for most folks.

    Right now, I`m thinking the actual game mechanic(s) that one could perform
    using a Tournament action might be much like the above Festival action in
    that there are two to four possible emphasis (mustering troops, improving
    existing units, an espionage action, loyalty shifts, etc.) with the regent
    deciding which he wants to focus upon and paying requisite costs.

    Gary

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  4. #4
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    I introduced a "Party" domain action to represent this.

    In a party action, each participating regent can spend Gb for the greater
    glory, but no more GB than the number of particpating regents. So, if you
    alone hold a party, you can spend 1 GB; if you and a friend hold a party,
    you can spend two, and so on.

    Each regent then receives 1d6 Regency Points for each GB spent.

    A large party of this kind can involve hundreds of GB. I introduced this
    for Sword and Crown; about fifty regents spendig around ten GB each works
    out to a VERY big party, generating huge amounts of glory (RP).


    /Carl

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  5. #5
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    Hello!

    Gary wrote:

    > ...
    > What kind of revenue might a festival bring in?

    For the landed regent holding it? None.
    For a guilder, holding a bazaar next to it? :-)
    Maybe the same as TRADE SERVICES?

    > How much cheaper and/or easier might it be to muster a unit if knights if
    > one has a tourney and they all come along and display their skill?

    None at all. Aren´t all knights already in the service of someone? Else
    they wouldn´t be knights at all.
    Knights are no mercenaries, whom you can hire when they participate in
    your tournament.

    > What would the loyalty reaction (if any) of the host population be?

    random +/- 1? After all if the foreign black knight massacres the local
    hero-knight in a tournament, then the local populace isn´t too happy
    about it.

    all IMHO
    bye
    Michael

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  6. #6
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
    Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 4:50 AM


    > > How much cheaper and/or easier might it be to muster a unit if knights
    if
    > > one has a tourney and they all come along and display their skill?
    >
    > None at all. Aren´t all knights already in the service of someone? Else
    > they wouldn´t be knights at all.
    > Knights are no mercenaries, whom you can hire when they participate in
    > your tournament.

    Knights are technically in someone`s service, but some knights do hire
    themselves out when their lord isn`t commanding them to be elsewhere. Such
    a "free lance" is available to fight for pay. Its also possible, if so
    inclined, to recall Germany and declare that there are Imperial Knights
    whose obligation is to the Emperor. The fact that there isn`t one makes
    them freelancers.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #7
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 07:04 AM 5/3/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > > > How much cheaper and/or easier might it be to muster a unit if
    > knights if
    > > > one has a tourney and they all come along and display their skill?
    > >
    > > None at all. Aren´t all knights already in the service of someone? Else
    > > they wouldn´t be knights at all.
    > > Knights are no mercenaries, whom you can hire when they participate in
    > > your tournament.
    >
    >Knights are technically in someone`s service, but some knights do hire
    >themselves out when their lord isn`t commanding them to be
    >elsewhere. Such a "free lance" is available to fight for pay. Its also
    >possible, if so inclined, to recall Germany and declare that there are
    >Imperial Knights whose obligation is to the Emperor. The fact that there
    >isn`t one makes them freelancers.

    Yes, it was quite common for knights to seek patronage at tournament. I
    shouldn`t have used the term "knights" there, though. I prefer the term
    "heavy cavalry" instead, but I meant knights only as an example. A
    tournament might attract men-at-arms and adventurers of all types so
    cavalry, archers or elite infantry could easily be justified. Other
    companies could also be put together just as easily from those who do not
    necessarily "make the cut" into the more prestigious units since they are
    also in the province (and will generally have less funds available to them)
    than the victors.

    Gary

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 09:44 AM 5/3/2002 +0200, Carl Cramér wrote:

    >I introduced a "Party" domain action to represent this.
    >
    >In a party action, each participating regent can spend Gb for the greater
    >glory, but no more GB than the number of particpating regents. So, if you
    >alone hold a party, you can spend 1 GB; if you and a friend hold a party,
    >you can spend two, and so on.
    >
    >Each regent then receives 1d6 Regency Points for each GB spent.

    That`s a fairly liberal exchange rate. It does take 4RP to make 1GB using
    Alchemy (not to mention access to a source(3), 1GB for components and
    wizard powers) but using this kind of exchange a wizard regent could "get
    lucky" and actually create RP by spending them to get GB at 4:1 then
    getting them back by spending those same GB to get RP at up to 1:6.

    In general, I think RP are more valuable than GB, though that will depend
    quite a bit on the nature and circumstances of the campaign. Whichever is
    more valuable, however, I don`t think there should be anything like a 1:1
    (or better) exchange rate between them. There should always be a "net
    loss" when using one for the other.

    Gary

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  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 3:30 PM

    > Yes, it was quite common for knights to seek patronage at tournament.

    Continuing in this line, it occurs to me you could use a tournament to find
    a specific kind of lieutenant. You want someone with a billion archery
    feats, hold an archery tournament. Want a classical knight, hold a joust.
    Bards will respond to a contest.

    Festivals might be more appropriate for spellcasters. Celebrate the Eve of
    the Dead to find a priest of Nesirie. Haelyn`s Festival or the Day of
    Ascent for priests of Haelyn. The autumnal equinox for priests of Ruornil
    or devoted mages. And so on.

    Organizations or realms that like to maintain a low profile could hold T or
    F, but precautions would be required, such as false pretenses, invitation
    only events, or front organizations. A guilder could hold a festival
    ostensibly to raise loyalty, but in fact he`s looking for skilled cutpurses.

    Just some elaboration there.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  10. #10
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    There is also a base cost of the action, and you have to spend an action
    doing it. Then you have to convince people to show up, because there is
    always the risk of treachery. All in all, I find it works fine.

    /Carl

    Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-05-03 22.42:

    > At 09:44 AM 5/3/2002 +0200, Carl Cramér wrote:
    >
    >> I introduced a "Party" domain action to represent this.
    >>
    >> In a party action, each participating regent can spend Gb for the greater
    >> glory, but no more GB than the number of particpating regents. So, if you
    >> alone hold a party, you can spend 1 GB; if you and a friend hold a party,
    >> you can spend two, and so on.
    >>
    >> Each regent then receives 1d6 Regency Points for each GB spent.
    >
    > That`s a fairly liberal exchange rate. It does take 4RP to make 1GB using
    > Alchemy (not to mention access to a source(3), 1GB for components and
    > wizard powers) but using this kind of exchange a wizard regent could "get
    > lucky" and actually create RP by spending them to get GB at 4:1 then
    > getting them back by spending those same GB to get RP at up to 1:6.
    >
    > In general, I think RP are more valuable than GB, though that will depend
    > quite a bit on the nature and circumstances of the campaign. Whichever is
    > more valuable, however, I don`t think there should be anything like a 1:1
    > (or better) exchange rate between them. There should always be a "net
    > loss" when using one for the other.
    >
    > Gary
    >
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