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  1. #21
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    It seems to me that at the crux of most issues here are actually the same as comparing "history" to "fiction".

    D&D is fiction - at its core and every single part of it. Some of it may be "similar" to history (or fact) but it is very much different.

    Some people want to make their game "more realistic" - this is not a BR only issue, many DMs/players prefer games of that kind.

    BR by its realm and war rules lent itself to be more accepted by those seeking more realistic type of play. The realm and war rules were for the most part things that could work with wargamers. Wargamers have a tendency to focus on mathmatics and "realism". Not all but a wargamer who doesn't also play D&D (or other role-playing games) is a different animal and looks at things from a different perspective.

    A lot of people seem to get focused so tightly on RW comparisons that the miss the role-play/fantasy part of BR. BR is not a real world it is a fictional place.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #22
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    At 03:38 AM 7/9/2009, irdeggman wrote:

    >A lot of people seem to get focused so tightly on RW comparisons that the miss the role-play/fantasy part of BR. BR is not a real world it is a fictional place.



    Hear, hear. I like a certain level of realism in gaming, but only to that extent that the realism is based on those aspects of the game that are consistent with the real world, and that the realism doesn`t subvert the concept of gaming itself. That is, when people come up with things like the way falling damage might work compared to actual physics then I`m fine with that. It`s good to know how long it takes for someone to reach terminal velocity. However, once they take that "realism" and put it into something like hit points, we start running into trouble because the game aspect of the hobby starts to rear its head. You can`t realistically portray impact damage in hit points because hit points don`t represent only physical force. In that context, it`s reasonable for falling damage to go beyond something like terminal velocity because hit points represent the will, expectation and placebo effect of damage as well as the effects on muscle, bone and sinew. It makes gaming sense for something like falling damage to go above and beyond (or below and under) the physics of a fall based on the simple fact that the game isn`t just about force and trauma. It`s interpretive. The same 12 hit points of damage from a sword swipe might represent a serious injury to one low level fighter, because it represents half his hit point total, but the same amount of damage might be nothing more than a scratch or just a psychological effect on a higher level one.

    Similarly, the "realism" that many people espouse is often much more interpretive than most folks want to admit. For example, what one person takes from the meaning of an action by Elizabeth Tudor might be very different from how another person sees the exact same event. Was Walsingham a spymaster/regent with guilds in his own right, or a Lieutenant of Elizabeth at some imperial level of some sort of domain system? Did he represent something else altogether? The concept of realism in politics is a very slippery one to begin with, so we must be particularly careful with it in BR.

    When it comes to military concepts we should be also reticent to claim realism as a rationalization for the game effects because we have several problems of the type described above. One of the sources of the current debate--whether medieval castles could be taken by siege or overwhelmed and how that is portrayed in the game--is problematic on several levels. First, we need to note that the castles described in the BR materials may or may not be very analogous to medieval castles in several ways. A castle (3) doesn`t sound like Krak des Chevaliers to me. Personally, I`m not even certain that the most extensive castles described in the BR domain rules adequately describe the kind of construction process that medieval stronghold architecture really is about. Those castles that we might consider impervious to siege/assault by conventional means represent years, sometimes decades of construction, tens of thousands of man hours, and vast amounts of wealth. 6-8GB/level and a few months of building doesn`t really cut it IMO.

    Similarly, the strength of castles in the medieval period is in many ways not even about warfare at all--it`s about suppressing the local population. It`s a political statement. Edward I (Longshanks) probably didn`t really expect to fight war in the sense that most people think about the concept when he began his building campaigns in Wales. It was to suppress rebellion with the threat of perpetual predation from nearby garrisons, and to frighten them into subservience with the scale of his power. The castles themselves are more like Agitate, Decrees or Monuments in BR terms in this sense. Nobody in their right minds would assault them before the age of gunpowder.

    In that context, why would be assume that BR siege and assault resembles that of the real world? BR is a "low-magic" world, but just a little magic is very useful against a mundane fortification--even an extensive one like the most impregnable real world castles. If medieval besiegers could turn invisible, warp wood, turn stone to mud, levitate, teleport, scry, etc. then the history of medieval military architecture would be very different.

    So, we must be cautious about making absolute rulings on these kinds of ideas on several levels, and always bear in mind that the system is meant to be dynamic, not simply a recreation of existing, metaphorical events.

    Gary
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 07-09-2009 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Expanded rows.

  3. #23
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    Believing or not is not an option in Birthright, that's the point. I continue thinking that changes at least a little how people behave and more important, how the Church behaves, because in the Earth for example it can have people not believing in its high ranks, something just impossible in Birthright.
    Why? Sorry, missing this bit entirely - why can't someone who doesn't 'believe' reach high political power? Or someone who believes, but whose personal interpretation is widely different to the norm? Most priests don't cast spells so don't lose anything by non-belief, other priests could be granted spells by an alternate power even if unaware of the true source (i.e. Torias Greene). Are your gods very close to your world so that they would a) know and b) act to stop such a person reaching high power? If so, why? If the person serves their church well, who cares if they can cast magic? If your gods are more distant leaving the running of the church to, well, the church, then I don't see any problem at all, frankly I can only see an improvement from a role-play perspective in scheming priests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    Again, it's going to be different enough to admit differences here and there without breaking the overall feeling. I think I never said it was going to be a total alien world.
    Ok, I misunderstood then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    This is pretty off topic but I'm really interested in these questions.

    In the time an army marches from Avanil or Boeruine to his domain, Rhuobe can kill most of the nobility in both kingdoms (rendering them unable to take actions), kill the army chain of command (rendering it unable to do bad things to his domain), and drink some mojitos. He just doesn't do it because... no idea. Rhuobe has the intelligence, the experience, the personal power, and the motivation to wreak havoc around his kingdom.
    Really, he must be able to run very fast... Remove rapid transit magic, or routing it through the shadow world (where awnshegh are going to be very much unwelcome) and everyone is stuck with foot, horse, or possibly flight. Note also that even if Rhuobhe did kill several hundred of the humans, in an eyeblink - certainly less than a single century - the humans would be as numerous again. Whereas his beloved sidhe would be utterly gone due to his failure to protect them and decision to provoke thousands to attack... Frankly killing a human is pointless, mildly entertaining perhaps, but it doesn't do anything to further his goals - would you try to kill all the ants in a world? Would it do any good if you did?

    Rhuobhe is caught on a dilemma, he can't afford to lose anyone, he can't grow without support and has none of any note, frankly he lost 15 centuries ago, he's just refusing to die in the hope that the universe can be persuaded to change its mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    Btw, I'm curious, but how do you think an army is going to have a chance of hitting Rhuobe? Technically that's impossible as he is inmune to normal weapons and missile weapons. The only thing would be something like overpowering him and capturing him, but he has to behave like a total idiot to allow that to happen (and even that could be arguable to work).
    I should note from the outset I approach 'dragons' (basically any thing with high magic and high brute force ability) from the approach of 'how do I cut this freak down to size' - because I don't want them saying 'I turn up, I win'. I want a game where civilisation is possible, and it just doesn't work if what are effectively gods walk the land with a major dislike of humanity.

    I am heavily into grapples against any mage who thinks they can fly above it all and rain down fiery doom, use swarm combat rules, momentum in the dead (no, if Rhoubhe kills the knights charger as it bears down on him, it doesn't disintegrate with the only impact a few gp chinging on to his gp total, the body plows into him and he risks being crushed and pinned), and abstract fatigue if someone insists on fighting non-stop for hours on end.

    People can rope bulls, tire out elephants, etc, etc - nothing mortal and physical can attack an army that is even remotely competently run and hope to slaughter them all. Hope, even expect, to kill dozens, even hundreds, yes - but sooner or later the dragon will be immobilised and then slaughtered regardless of its defenses.

    Both the Gorgon and Rhoubhe are gestalt's of course, the uber-no of both high magic and high sorcery, but if you approach the problem from the angle of 'what works to stop him since something does' as opposed to the munchkin 'how can I argue that he can't be stopped' it isn't hard to get something that makes sense.

    [QUOTE=Vicente;50695]This has nothing to do with the fantasy level, it's just that the Rhuobe that comes in the Boxed Set is overpowered.

    Agreed, but then, like the dragons and Gorgon, he's a McGuffin not an enemy. If you want to use him as an enemy you need to make him more believable - what the heck was he fighting to gain those last few levels? Heck, the last dozen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    The Gorgon is even worse than Rhuobe, he has Int 19, and appart from personal power, experience and motivation, he has resources at his disposal. He could conquer all Anuire (easy) to make people worship him (harder) if he really wants godhood and see other gods crying (simple idea, I'm sure he can come up with much more convoluted and complicated plans to achieve his goals).
    Indeed, he pushes the gestalt even further, personally I lost interest in creating the 'unbeatable' monster/character a long time ago, the closest I've come in a long time was Great Aunt Katrina in PS Danigau - and she was built purely to see how ridiculous the BRCS Gorgon was.

    Personally I'd cut his int, remove all spellcasting, and leave him the paragon fighter, probably resistant to magic, but ultimately L20-30 not L40+ as in some conversions. Better yet I'd remove him entirely, he serves little purpose that can't be served by something less godlike.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Why? Sorry, missing this bit entirely - why can't someone who doesn't 'believe' reach high political power?
    Honestly, I just took for granted that churches are going to be lead by spellcasting priests. I find impossible in Birthright (or DnD) that a non-priest leads a church (unless something really strange is happening).

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Or someone who believes, but whose personal interpretation is widely different to the norm? Most priests don't cast spells so don't lose anything by non-belief, other priests could be granted spells by an alternate power even if unaware of the true source (i.e. Torias Greene). Are your gods very close to your world so that they would a) know and b) act to stop such a person reaching high power?

    If so, why? If the person serves their church well, who cares if they can cast magic? If your gods are more distant leaving the running of the church to, well, the church, then I don't see any problem at all, frankly I can only see an improvement from a role-play perspective in scheming priests.
    No, my gods aren't close to the world at all. But, why would a church be lead by someone who doesn't have the favor of it god at all? I don't think it's going to be easy for that person to maintain its leadership position against priests with ambitions. That person has a lot of other jobs that fit him much better: support role (advisor, lieutenant), power in the shadows,...

    But this is a total personal interpretation of how power places are taken, nothing really to back this. For me it seems logical that power places are taken by powerful (personally) individuals that are related to the power source. It would be similar to a fighter leading a cabal of wizards, it's totally out of place :S

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Really, he must be able to run very fast... Remove rapid transit magic, or routing it through the shadow world (where awnshegh are going to be very much unwelcome) and everyone is stuck with foot, horse, or possibly flight. Note also that even if Rhuobhe did kill several hundred of the humans, in an eyeblink - certainly less than a single century - the humans would be as numerous again. Whereas his beloved sidhe would be utterly gone due to his failure to protect them and decision to provoke thousands to attack... Frankly killing a human is pointless, mildly entertaining perhaps, but it doesn't do anything to further his goals - would you try to kill all the ants in a world? Would it do any good if you did?

    Rhuobhe is caught on a dilemma, he can't afford to lose anyone, he can't grow without support and has none of any note, frankly he lost 15 centuries ago, he's just refusing to die in the hope that the universe can be persuaded to change its mind.
    I don't think after the display of destruction that Rhuobe can do any sane person would be willing to attack him or his kingdom without guarantees of success. And given he has access to Realm Magic he can just ward his province and keep everyone outside if needed.

    But, what are Rhuobe goals in your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I should note from the outset I approach 'dragons' (basically any thing with high magic and high brute force ability) from the approach of 'how do I cut this freak down to size' - because I don't want them saying 'I turn up, I win'. I want a game where civilisation is possible, and it just doesn't work if what are effectively gods walk the land with a major dislike of humanity.

    I am heavily into grapples against any mage who thinks they can fly above it all and rain down fiery doom, use swarm combat rules, momentum in the dead (no, if Rhoubhe kills the knights charger as it bears down on him, it doesn't disintegrate with the only impact a few gp chinging on to his gp total, the body plows into him and he risks being crushed and pinned), and abstract fatigue if someone insists on fighting non-stop for hours on end.

    People can rope bulls, tire out elephants, etc, etc - nothing mortal and physical can attack an army that is even remotely competently run and hope to slaughter them all. Hope, even expect, to kill dozens, even hundreds, yes - but sooner or later the dragon will be immobilised and then slaughtered regardless of its defenses.

    Both the Gorgon and Rhoubhe are gestalt's of course, the uber-no of both high magic and high sorcery, but if you approach the problem from the angle of 'what works to stop him since something does' as opposed to the munchkin 'how can I argue that he can't be stopped' it isn't hard to get something that makes sense.
    I think you are severely understimating Rhuobe or magic in general. For example: fly, improved invisibility, and then he has a ton of rounds to butcher the army command: cloud kill, death spell, summon fire elemental (are you going to grapple that? ), and all the rest of evocations and summonings that could just render the army unable to work. Of course it's going to be hard for him to kill a whole army in one day, but he can render the army unable to act very easily. And the worse thing for the army: he can come the next day and repeat, and the next, and the next. Watching your leaders and companions die from an invisible attacker (or visible but flying or whatever so you are unable to harm him), day after day is pretty hard on morale and paranoia: imagine the stories those soldiers are going to spread when they return home.

    And there are some extra points we aren't taking into account: magic items (because surely Rhuobe has a ton of those at his disposal), contingencies (so even if he is reduced he will get away),...

    That's the sad thing of Rhuobe (or dragons or any other thing with such a high power): the answer to your question 'what works to stop him' is 'nothing' (at least when talking about low level armies). And I'm pretty sure Rhuobe could do fairly complicated plots to achieve his goals without having to resort to brute force.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Indeed, he pushes the gestalt even further, personally I lost interest in creating the 'unbeatable' monster/character a long time ago, the closest I've come in a long time was Great Aunt Katrina in PS Danigau - and she was built purely to see how ridiculous the BRCS Gorgon was.

    Personally I'd cut his int, remove all spellcasting, and leave him the paragon fighter, probably resistant to magic, but ultimately L20-30 not L40+ as in some conversions. Better yet I'd remove him entirely, he serves little purpose that can't be served by something less godlike.
    Totally agreed.
    Last edited by Vicente; 07-09-2009 at 08:55 PM.

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    At 01:43 PM 7/9/2009, Vicente wrote:

    >I don`t think after the display of destruction that Rhuobe can do
    >any sane person would be willing to attack him or his kingdom
    >without guarantees of success.

    Fortunately, that still leaves players and the DM with the option of
    attacking without such guarantees.... Seriously, though, part of the
    background of the setting is Michael Roele attacking the Gorgon and
    losing. Granted, we don`t know what he might have been thinking, but
    triumphing against the odds is part of the heroic paradigm, but any
    number of non-pragmatic characters might launch a raid into Rhoubhe`s
    territory. It might be doomed but so are land wars in Asia.... That
    doesn`t seem to stop a lot of folks from trying.

    >And given he has access to Realm Magic he can just ward his province
    >and keep everyone outside if needed.

    Personally, I think Rhobhe`s realm is likely warded year round, as
    would be several other elven kingdoms.

    Gary

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    Member SirRobin's Avatar
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    Yeah, warding their provinces is likely commonplace for the fey folk.

    Didn't Michael invade Gorgon's turf due to getting the mutant baby? I thought one of the novels went through that. Think that's considered canon isn't it?
    Sir Robin the Not-quite-so-brave-as-Sir-Lancelot,
    who had nearly fought the Dragon of Agnor,
    who had nearly stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol,
    and who had personally wet himself at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L View Post
    At 01:43 PM 7/9/2009, Vicente wrote:

    >I don`t think after the display of destruction that Rhuobe can do
    >any sane person would be willing to attack him or his kingdom
    >without guarantees of success.

    Fortunately, that still leaves players and the DM with the option of
    attacking without such guarantees.... Seriously, though, part of the
    background of the setting is Michael Roele attacking the Gorgon and
    losing. Granted, we don`t know what he might have been thinking, but
    triumphing against the odds is part of the heroic paradigm, but any
    number of non-pragmatic characters might launch a raid into Rhoubhe`s
    territory. It might be doomed but so are land wars in Asia.... That
    doesn`t seem to stop a lot of folks from trying.
    Of course, players are part of the non-sane population, Rhuobe is a challenge designed just for them. But the point is that those people may launch a raid against Rhuobe no matter what Rhuobe does, so why just sit down there doing "nothing"? (I suppose he is doing something, but it just doesn't seem very productive)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Yeah, warding their provinces is likely commonplace for the fey folk.

    Didn't Michael invade Gorgon's turf due to getting the mutant baby? I thought one of the novels went through that. Think that's considered canon isn't it?
    I haven't read the novels, what's this about? O_o

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    At 07:10 AM 7/10/2009, Vicente wrote:

    >But the point is that those people may launch a raid against Rhuobe
    >no matter what Rhuobe does, so why just sit down there doing
    >"nothing"? (I suppose he is doing something, but it just doesn`t
    >seem very productive)

    Despite being one of the more fearful awnshegh in the setting, I
    suspect the idea for Rhuobhe is that he is in a sort of slow, painful
    decline just like other elven domains. Rhoubhe represents one
    extreme of Sidhe philosophy, but that extreme is no more effective
    than (most) of the others. In fact, given the size of his realm and
    his own comparative power relative to other elven lands, his methods
    might be viewed as the most likely to result in elven
    extinction. Granted, there are other factors involved
    there. Rhoubhe`s lands are nestled amongst more dangerous human
    realms, and his seat isn`t based on millennia-old realms like those
    of other elven lands, but Rhoubhe is really more of an outpost than a
    domain, and it`s leader more of an insurgent than a ruler.

    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L View Post
    At 07:10 AM 7/10/2009, Vicente wrote:
    Despite being one of the more fearful awnshegh in the setting, I
    suspect the idea for Rhuobhe is that he is in a sort of slow, painful
    decline just like other elven domains. Rhoubhe represents one
    extreme of Sidhe philosophy, but that extreme is no more effective
    than (most) of the others. In fact, given the size of his realm and
    his own comparative power relative to other elven lands, his methods
    might be viewed as the most likely to result in elven
    extinction. Granted, there are other factors involved
    there. Rhoubhe`s lands are nestled amongst more dangerous human
    realms, and his seat isn`t based on millennia-old realms like those
    of other elven lands, but Rhoubhe is really more of an outpost than a
    domain, and it`s leader more of an insurgent than a ruler.
    I decided to re-read Rhuobhe stat card and the Rhuobhe domain description in RoE and it seems to confirm that he should be doing far more damage to humans.

    For example, RoE says:

    "He goes out of his way to kill any human he can: man, woman, or child, but specially regents. He sees himself as protector of the forests and guardian of a lost elven way of life and takes an active part in destroying the Anuireans around him."

    (I don't want to quote more, I hope that's not a problem)

    Both sources are pretty clear stating that Rhuobhe is an active NPC (specially to anything related to the Aelvinnwode), and that he is not just sitting there waiting for a group of adventurers to farm him for XP.

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