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Thread: Realms: scores

  1. #21
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Sir Tiamat, by realms you mean domains? Because it is possible to be in charge of a realm but have no holdings by purely being a provincial regent. The holdings within the realm may be vassals or independent from the provincial regent.

    The word "domain" has been used by us mainly to imply that a domain regent has at least one holding of some sort under their control. Strictly speaking, a realm is a subset of domains.

    Sorontar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    Sir Tiamat, by realms you mean domains? Because it is possible to be in charge of a realm but have no holdings by purely being a provincial regent. The holdings within the realm may be vassals or independent from the provincial regent.

    The word "domain" has been used by us mainly to imply that a domain regent has at least one holding of some sort under their control. Strictly speaking, a realm is a subset of domains.

    Sorontar
    You are correct, I incorrectly referred to domains as realms. I just reread the BRCS and a realm is a domain with at least one province: indeed a subset of domains. It seems that I needlessly complicated things by wrongly referring to realm where I meant domain... :|

    Ps Thank you for pointing my mistake out to me, I have now clarified my earlier posts.
    Last edited by Sir Tiamat; 07-14-2009 at 01:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tiamat View Post
    I still do not understand, I hope by making my points clear, your points will also become clear to me.

    In the proposed system I asign one set of six ability scores to the entire domain - in other words the total collection of holding and source levels under one regent. These six "ability scores" help determine how well the domain can cary out specific skills, just like ability scores help determine your skills at the character level.

    Holding and source holding levels are tools in the proposed system, they are used as weapons and to cary out tasks - in other words skills - at the province level. They work similar to thieves tools, that provide a + to a skill check or a sword +3 at the character level.

    The system of province levels and source levels will not change in the proposed system; they will continue to set a limitation on the maximum number holding of source holding levels within a province.

    Ah.. perhaps I was unclear because I did not use the proper term for source holding...
    In my earlier posts where I said source levels I mean source holding levels, which can indeed be confusing. My appologies.
    Crystal clear now, then forget what I said

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Something to also consider is how these scores reflect the physical aspects of the province (which is one of the reasons why I think you need to seriously look at individual provinces and not just the domain itself).

    The more people (actually better described as the more economic development) in a province the less "nature" there is - that is the physical landscape is modified to make room for the people - trees are cut down and farms are developed, etc. Elven lands are the exception of course.

    The changes in the physical landscape reflect how the land's current potential for defending against/attacking via magic.

    These are the things I have been trying to make a connection with the domain ability scores.
    Duane Eggert

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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    Something to also consider is how these scores reflect the physical aspects of the province (which is one of the reasons why I think you need to seriously look at individual provinces and not just the domain itself).

    The more people (actually better described as the more economic development) in a province the less "nature" there is - that is the physical landscape is modified to make room for the people - trees are cut down and farms are developed, etc. Elven lands are the exception of course.

    The changes in the physical landscape reflect how the land's current potential for defending against/attacking via magic.

    These are the things I have been trying to make a connection with the domain ability scores.
    I am not sure what you mean with "potential". A province with a higher source level, could support more source holdings and would therefore have more magic potential?

    I do not see how the physical landscape should reflect the magical attack capabilities of a domain perse. Granted, a more developed province could not support the same source holding level and the source holding level would affect the magical attack capabilities. However, a domain consisting of a single level 1 source holding should have the same magical attack capabilities irrespective of the development of the province.

    I want to keep the domain scores seperate from province development, because although province development caps the holding potential of a domain it does not directly affect the attributes of a domain. A domain consisting of a level two guild holding in a developed area, should not be required to be different from in scores from a similar level two guild domain in an undeveloped area. Surely there are to be likely differences between the domains, but these should mostly cosmetic. Incorperating cosmetical differences between two similar domains in the mechanics would in my view become needlesly complex.

    Further note that in the current proposal there is no such thing as a magic defence. As per fourth edition, all attacks, including magic attacks target one out of four defences - i.e. fortification, resilience, security, or loyalty - depending on the attack power. These defences are based on the characteristics of the domain and the targetted holding.
    Last edited by Sir Tiamat; 07-14-2009 at 11:35 AM.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tiamat View Post
    I am not sure what you mean with "potential". A province with a higher source level, could support more source holdings and would therefore have more magic potential?

    I do not see how the physical landscape should reflect the magical attack capabilities of a domain perse. Granted, a more developed province could not support the same source holding level and the source holding level would affect the magical attack capabilities. However, a domain consisting of a single level 1 source holding should have the same magical attack capabilities irrespective of the development of the province.

    These are precisely the things that are a deviation from core BR setting principles - that is what I have been trying to call your attention to.

    As a core BR setting principle mebhaighl is the arcane magic power of the world and it is directly tied to the development of the land (inversely). That is forests and mountains contain more mebhaighl that can be tapped than do cities and farm lands.
    Duane Eggert

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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    These are precisely the things that are a deviation from core BR setting principles - that is what I have been trying to call your attention to.
    I do not understand why.

    As a core BR setting principle mebhaighl is the arcane magic power of the world and it is directly tied to the development of the land (inversely). That is forests and mountains contain more mebhaighl that can be tapped than do cities and farm lands.
    True, and I have no desire to change that.

    Domain ability scores are not intended to refer to the nature of the lands. They refer to the human - or others races' - creations. The ability scores are designed to represent the collective abilities of the regent and its followers.

    The nature of the land/province, will continue to exist of a province level and a source level irrespective of domain ability scores.

    Forests and mountains will continue to provide high levels of mebhail. However these high levels of mebhail are not part of the domain until they are harnassed in source holdings.
    Last edited by Sir Tiamat; 07-14-2009 at 02:42 PM.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tiamat View Post
    I am not sure what you mean with "potential". A province with a higher source level, could support more source holdings and would therefore have more magic potential?

    I do not see how the physical landscape should reflect the magical attack capabilities of a domain perse. Granted, a more developed province could not support the same source holding level and the source holding level would affect the magical attack capabilities. However, a domain consisting of a single level 1 source holding should have the same magical attack capabilities irrespective of the development of the province.

    I disagree with this one totally.

    A Source (1) versus a Source (10) is a vast difference in magical power. The higher source level allows access to higher level realm spells, which in a logical power progressive system (like 4th ed) translates into more powerful spells.

    So a higher source level should have a higher magical attack potential (or rating).

    A similar perspective exists for developed province. The higher the development the better and more troops the province can support.

    Look at the Imperial city. Basically a 10/0 province. Tremendous troop capacity but no magic potential. This excluded the use of things like ley lines – but those are things that tie difference provinces together.
    Duane Eggert

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tiamat View Post
    Domain ability scores are not intended to refer to the nature of the lands. They refer to the human - or others races' - creations. The ability scores are designed to represent the collective abilities of the regent and its followers.
    But sources and all other types of holdings are mutually exclusive of each other by definition, except for elven lands.

    Sources do not have a "follower" relationship unlike the other types of holdings. It is instead a bonding of the wizard and the land itself (unspoiled and uncultivated).

    The nature of the land/province, will continue to exist of a province level and a source level irrespective of domain ability scores.

    Forests and mountains will continue to provide high levels of mebhail. However these high levels of mebhail are not part of the domain until they are harnassed in source holdings.

    Logic (and the setting itself) dictates that this can't be - it is impossible for a province, again esxcept for elven lands, to support a high level of development and and a high level of source potential at the same time.
    Duane Eggert

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tiamat View Post
    I do not understand why.
    At least in part game balance - currently you either have high wealth/industry or high magic, or a trade off between the two. If there is no trade off then the stronger economic realms have no compensating factor to help the economically inferior realms survive - and there is no reason for a ruler not to max out all areas of power.

    I think that your system has a similar effect at one remove - a mountain will have low possible domain score and high mebhaighl potential, a plains the converse.

    The direct link between increasing domain power reducing source potential is being lost which reduces conflict (the source holder will not oppose any increase) and makes economically realms more powerful (since no source potential is lost) making it less likely that less populous realms could survive. That moves you away from typical BR issues of the forest realm resisting the plains realm by use of more powerful magic to outweigh the plains realm's economic power.

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