Domain actions query

[Sorontar]

Isn't the ceremony you are talking about Investiture? That is only needed for the passing of power between two people. When creating a new holding all you need to do is spend the GB to do it. You are not fully connected to the land yet, so the power of Investiture is not needed. And as you are creating something totally new, there would be no one to investiture with.

Yes and no. I forsee that a ceremony is required to Coronate you at Level 0 so that you can Rule Holding to level 1.

In the BRCS at least, that is the Ceremony domain action. Investiture spells require a priest regent. Ceremony does not by default. However, the two can be combined. The spell normally used for investitures is Bloodline Investiture, but for a Level 0 Holding, there may be no bloodline to transfer and the regent may already be blooded. Therefore, is the spell required?

However, I don't know how people handled this for the AD&D BRCS. Did regents have to be invested at level 0 in order Rule Holding to level 1? If so, did this investiture require a temple regent?

Sorontar

[Retillin]

In my second ed games I never had a Ceremony or Investiture required to create a holding or rule it up to level 1. I was always under the assumption that if it did not require regency you did not need to be blooded for the action to work. So any priest or rogue could build a level 1 holding, they just did not gain regency from it and they could never raise it higher. But then I always tried to have the PC adventure to set up the level 0 holding.

[Mirviriam]

> It`s not really possible to lend a holding to other characters, though the Trade Service action in the BoR kind of hints that one can shift aspects of the control of a holding to other regents at least temporarily for GB earning purposes. I`d extend the logic a bit to allow a character other than the source holder to spend RP by casting a realm spell through the lent holding.

Sources seem to be an exception everywhere we turn. They are a much more personal asset than any other. BoM allows sources to be lent.

> Presumably that could be extended to non-regent LTs during a domain turn for various purposes, which is kind of the interpretation I`d use to justify how LT actions work. It`s easier to see the Trade Service action being extended to LT/regents and used to justify the LT/regent`s access. Of course, this means with the willing participation of any regent in charge of source holdings just about anyone with the ability to cast arcane magic can cast realm spells. There are a couple of other situations that would support this interpretation (Tuarhieval`s spellcasters, the masters at the College of Sorcery) and I don`t think it`ll wind up creating too many difficulties if such activities are assumed to be part of a LT action. Since a regent can only assign one per domain turn anyway, wizards can pop out of the woodwork to cast realm spells all over the place.

An interesting justification. (I think I like it). What would you say to a non-priest regent of a faith domain (one of temples), with a blooded priest LT being able to use the temples to cast priestly realm spells(one only per domain turn as a LT action) ? Or a non-wizard regent of sources (e.g. the Gorgon) using a LT action to have a tame wizard cast realm spell ?

The lent/shared domain is always contentious. How do domains such as the Red Kings, the Three Brother Mages, College of Sorcery etc work? Who can use domain assets ? What limits are there if any on the use ?

I like to think of such domains as "collective domains" where all members are equal. (well... tee hee... there`s equal and then there`s
equal if you know what I mean) Anyway, members are considered non-regents with access to domain assets, i.e. they get one action per
domain turn and can use a domain action if there`s one available. Each Red King for example, gets an action, but only three of them can perform a domain action so it`s first in first served (Initiative decides). A member can only use as many RP as he has bloodline score but apart from that there`s no limit on usage of resources, beyond pissing off your fellow members. Investiture is performed where needed on the group.

This is why when I detailed out Level 2 rules (tournament) in my wiki page - I stated source, temple, law (army mustry), guild was constrained by their level in how much they could spend.

Also in regards to the vassals created to contest, this idea is also addressed in rule balances by costing the level of province right off the bat, not to mention modifier is based only on your holding level.

http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...rthRight_Rules

[Mirviriam]

BTW: Off topic but with all the die hard history buffs here, does anyone allow grants without a ceremony?

I only ask because, it seems everyone details every other aspect of the game I have to expect that no DM has ever allowed a grant without the physically present parties in a ceremony. That would logically limit how many vassals that could be empowered with RP to do crap?

[dooley]

Oh good God! Please do not revive threads that have been dead for years!

An attitude like that above sorely tempts me to go revive all the dead threads. The sane responses of others mean I won't.

[dooley]

BTW: Off topic but with all the die hard history buffs here, does anyone allow grants without a ceremony?

I only ask because, it seems everyone details every other aspect of the game I have to expect that no DM has ever allowed a grant without the physically present parties in a ceremony. That would logically limit how many vassals that could be empowered with RP to do crap?

Personally I'm against being able to give RP to vassals.
I also allow a single Diplomacy action from an overlord to be usable on all vassals at once. Separate success rolls obviously

[Thelandrin]

An attitude like that above sorely tempts me to go revive all the dead threads. The sane responses of others mean I won't.

Don't be deliberately provoking.

[AndrewTall]

BTW: Off topic but with all the die hard history buffs here, does anyone allow grants without a ceremony?

I only ask because, it seems everyone details every other aspect of the game I have to expect that no DM has ever allowed a grant without the physically present parties in a ceremony. That would logically limit how many vassals that could be empowered with RP to do crap?

A ceremony will be held for about everything, though often at sub-domain level. One way around the physical presence issue (a big problem when horse or sail is the fastest rtransport) is to allow proxies to stand in for the participants. That said, some ceremonies will always require physical presence socially, any regent who sends a looey to their coronation ceremony deserves everything that hits them.

[AndrewTall]

Personally I'm against being able to give RP to vassals.
I also allow a single Diplomacy action from an overlord to be usable on all vassals at once. Separate success rolls obviously

I would allow regency to be used to support the act of a vassal, but then I'd allow it to support/oppose any action where there is overlapping influence. I'd restrict it socialy with the following issues.

1. Support for the basics implies weakness. If a vassal is begging RP routinely then they are effectively telling their rivals, peers, sub-vassals, etc that they can't rule the domain in their own right - they are purely their leige's man - in game terms over time I would expect them to vanish below the domain radar in turn and their holdings to be subsumed into the liege's.

2. Shared failure. If the liege lends support to the vassal, and the vassal fails, then the judgment of the liege becomes questionable, their court may complain about the wasted time, effort, taxes, etc, etc. A vassal may even deliberately fail in an action to weaken their liege if they can do it without weakening themselves.

3. Shared success. A vassal who succeeds but only with the help of their liege must share the credit, their effort then strengthening their liege. If the liege gave significant support then the vassal may wind up with little or no credit from their efforts. Similarly a liege who supports their vassal in success may risk strengthening that vassal beyond a point that the vassal is tame, or creating an expectation that they will support other vassals in need, etc.

[dooley]

A ceremony will be held for about everything, though often at sub-domain level. One way around the physical presence issue (a big problem when horse or sail is the fastest rtransport) is to allow proxies to stand in for the participants. That said, some ceremonies will always require physical presence socially, any regent who sends a looey to their coronation ceremony deserves everything that hits them.

There's a lot of difference between ceremonies and Investiture ceremonies though. The minor stuff is handled as part of the ongoing court IMO.
The major stuff in most cases only needs the use of an action by the beneficiary, the giver only has to show up on the day so may be performing actions of there own. Waiting upon the Kings pleasure happened quite a lot.