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  1. #11
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpdarkdraco View Post
    I didn't like the 3e conversion of Bloodline Score.

    Are you talking about the "playtest" version or the "sanctioned chapter 2" version?

    The sanctioned chapter 2 version was much more in line with the 2nd ed numbers (still some off - but that is what happens when you try to insert some sort of "set" pattern/progression, 2nd ed was full of totally random stuff that didn't fit any patterns).
    Duane Eggert

  2. #12
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halancar View Post
    I think either putting bloodline abilities as feats, or a form a multiclass, would work well (multi class adds the possibilities of following some king of "Blooded Scion" Paragon Path, as per the multiclassing rules, which is nice).
    Unless I'm totally off mutliclassing in 4th ed is pretty difficult to do and pretty much ahs to be done at certain "poer levels" and causes a lot of other issues.

    4th ed seems much more set to a single class progression for characters than the mostly free mutliclassing of 3.5.

    The "paths" are a different animal all together.

    As for bloodline strength, frankly, it always seemed to me that it was just there as part of the bloodline generating system, and could be eliminated entirely, or simply tied to bloodline score "a bloodine with a score <N is minor, and so on).

    The score is important - since it determines the amount of RP that can be gained, and also the number of abilities available.

    Strength in 2nd ed was really only loosely tied to score though. It was possible to have a scion with a great bloodline have a blood score number less than one with a minor one (in fact I think a tainted one could possible have a greater score too). Strength seemed to me to be more a reflection of "status" than anything else due to this loose tie to any numerical effect.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    Unless I'm totally off mutliclassing in 4th ed is pretty difficult to do and pretty much ahs to be done at certain "poer levels" and causes a lot of other issues.

    4th ed seems much more set to a single class progression for characters than the mostly free mutliclassing of 3.5.

    The "paths" are a different animal all together.
    You are totally off multiclassing in 4E. It is not pretty difficult to do and is just the cost of a single feat. Almost every character I make takes a multiclass feat because they offer an extra power (at-will to encounter), an extra skill, and an extra class feature (though sometimes the class feature is limited to encounter status). If you want to go deeper into a class where you have to purchase the extra feat then it can become alittle more issue because you have to spend about 3 more feats to get the full ability of the class for standard multiclassing. Multiclass-only Classes like Spellscarred use a slightly different rule variation where you get free power swapping between the classes when you get the feats (as opposed to the pick a "Blank" power of your level or lower). I will grant that 4E is definitely not 3.5 multiclass which was the optimizers dream and thus the reason for the stricter multiclassing rules.

    Paragon Paths are conceptionally no different then Prestige Classes.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    Are you talking about the "playtest" version or the "sanctioned chapter 2" version?

    The sanctioned chapter 2 version was much more in line with the 2nd ed numbers (still some off - but that is what happens when you try to insert some sort of "set" pattern/progression, 2nd ed was full of totally random stuff that didn't fit any patterns).
    I actually preferred the Playtest version as it got the Bloodline score in as another ability score which was great. I use this version of Bloodlines in my own 4E game. I also don't make much fuss over the Strengths of the Bloodlines.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halancar View Post
    I like what you have done with the abilities, but as far as the bloodline score goes, I would prefer to see something along the line of what was done in the 3.5 conversion : bloodline score is a 7th ability (after strength, dex, etc.), generated/bought at creation like the other and with the same scale.
    The reason I had not gone with the 3.5ed bloodline score conversion is because it would make it harder to convert existing cannon material with NPCs, Awnshelien & Enshregh. Keeping the score the same as 2ed material means it is an easy conversion.

    3.5 conversion didn't have the same scale as the other abilities either. It goes all the way up to 100 and gives more blood abilities then the 2ed material. Not sure how you would buy or get high bloodline score with current rules for buying abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halancar View Post
    I think either putting bloodline abilities as feats, or a form a multiclass, would work well (multi class adds the possibilities of following some king of "Blooded Scion" Paragon Path, as per the multiclassing rules, which is nice).
    I have the feat option already there in the conversion. Multiclass would completely change the mechanics of blood abilities. They then become power swaps with other other powers the character may have of the same level. You would then have to give a level for each power within each derivation.

    E.g. Bloodline Andurias would have to have all the blood abilities scaled by level dependent on their power. Azrai would have to do the same and so on with the other derivations. Not sure how I would scale these powers as some of them are based of 2ed spells that do not exist in 4e now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halancar View Post
    As for bloodline strength, frankly, it always seemed to me that it was just there as part of the bloodline generating system, and could be eliminated entirely, or simply tied to bloodline score "a bloodine with a score <N is minor, and so on).
    I sort of agree with you but I don't see a problem with it. It gives you a quick glance at how powerfull a blooded character might be. It is also used in some spells that I will be converting to Rituals and the like.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    Are you talking about the "playtest" version or the "sanctioned chapter 2" version?

    The sanctioned chapter 2 version was much more in line with the 2nd ed numbers (still some off - but that is what happens when you try to insert some sort of "set" pattern/progression, 2nd ed was full of totally random stuff that didn't fit any patterns).
    I was talking about the sanctioned chapter. It was just my personal feeling and not a reflection of the conversion. Just didn't like it. Felt clunky to me.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpdarkdraco View Post
    I have the feat option already there in the conversion. Multiclass would completely change the mechanics of blood abilities. They then become power swaps with other other powers the character may have of the same level. You would then have to give a level for each power within each derivation.

    E.g. Bloodline Andurias would have to have all the blood abilities scaled by level dependent on their power. Azrai would have to do the same and so on with the other derivations. Not sure how I would scale these powers as some of them are based of 2ed spells that do not exist in 4e now.
    I can see that this would not at all be easy and how it would change bloodlines as a system. However, if we are serious about creating a 4th edition birthright we would probably at some point need to scale the powers. Powers as a random add-on are destabilizing to a campaign. Actually in my game group second edition campaigns broke down beforelvl 12 exactly because random power add-ons.

    I have learnt that if I want to improve a written text, I cannot simply change minor things but I have to build it anew entirely. Kill your babies is the advise that I can give and this includes you favourite setting.

    Still, I can see that these things will cost tremendous effort and in the meanwhile I am glad with the things that we actually have.

  8. #18
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Blood XP

    The blood abilities were designed for AD&D but were different from NWPs because:
    * you couldn't specialise
    * their "level" was semi-set

    The only way you could change a blood ability was to increase your bloodline score. Your bloodline score was independent from your XPs, HPs or any other measure. It was something you earned but you didn't get it very often.

    Therefore, even if D&D 4e seems to work on a level-by-level basis, I don't think blood abilities should match them. They avoided linking bloodlines to XP at the start. I don't think there are any faults that warrant that being changed.

    However, if you want to start a Blood XP system (aka mutant experience, see also XP for thieving abilities in AD&D) then that is another thing. If you overuse your blood abilities, they may strengthen.... but they may also change or change you. And that is how you suddenly get bloodform/bloodtrait being spontaneously created. The bloodline score need not change, just the level and nature of the abilities. This may the DM's call rather than a formal counting system of BXP per level, but they would still need guidance from new rules.

    Sorontar.

  9. #19
    4E does this as a core feature! You can't "specialize" a power though you can get things that can effect a wide-range of things which may effect the power as well. Each power also has a set level and the power itself doesn't increase but by the 4E mechanics you gain a more powerful newer power and eventually you gain enough powers that you have to start losing powers by trading them for open slots for the higher powers. This seems very Birthrighty to me that a Blood Power you hardly uses goes away and you gain a different blood-line power since you been working your bloodline. While I don't think the Bloodline-specific powers should be leveled I think there should be a Blooded Scion class that has a bunch of "generic" bloodline abilities while you see feat to gain the more Bloodline-specific ones (like the way that Channel Divinity works for Clerics).

    I think if the Bloodline is connected to level in away then it would actually fit the entire "Scions are great adventurers" setting text of the AD&D Birthright. Also I have plans for a Domain system that offers experience as if you overcame a challenge like the Skill Challenge system. I think I saw this in another book where you gain experience for your actions.

    I think I am going to clear my plate to focus on Birthright again so I can get some more 4E practice experience for my other 4E projects. We are off topic and it may behoove us to move to another thread so we don't clog up tpdarkdraco's draft thread.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    The blood abilities were designed for AD&D but were different from NWPs because:
    * you couldn't specialise
    * their "level" was semi-set

    The only way you could change a blood ability was to increase your bloodline score. Your bloodline score was independent from your XPs, HPs or any other measure. It was something you earned but you didn't get it very often.

    Therefore, even if D&D 4e seems to work on a level-by-level basis, I don't think blood abilities should match them. They avoided linking bloodlines to XP at the start. I don't think there are any faults that warrant that being changed.

    However, if you want to start a Blood XP system (aka mutant experience, see also XP for thieving abilities in AD&D) then that is another thing. If you overuse your blood abilities, they may strengthen.... but they may also change or change you. And that is how you suddenly get bloodform/bloodtrait being spontaneously created. The bloodline score need not change, just the level and nature of the abilities. This may the DM's call rather than a formal counting system of BXP per level, but they would still need guidance from new rules.

    Sorontar.
    I was thinking along the lines of manifesting powers, which in the case of PCs would always be level based. In that each bloodline ability has a minimum level that needs to be attained in order to use or aqcuire it. Powers can also manifest themselves with other achievements, but this seldom hapens - read for NPCs only.

    I think that in fourth edition bloodlines - especially powers - should at the very least not be random and more or less equal for all PCs. Preferably, powers should scale with PC levels and should only allow for a very limited number of encounter, utility or daily powers over those a PC would have under the standard rules.

    Creating a fourth edition Birthright would require recreating the mechanics of Birthright to fit the balancing mechanisms of 4th. The setting material should remain intact but the AD&D mechanics are in need of restyling. Seeing that this forum is dedicated to a long-lost setting and therefore bound to be conservative, recreation may prove difficult.

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