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  1. #31
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjurikwinds View Post
    True; I keep playing with unrealistic assumption that your unit maintenance payments (and movement costs) bundle-in the supply-route issue, even for human armies...
    Supply routes are certainly not medieval. Medieval armies are more supply-as-you-go, which is one of the reasons castles are so important. They collect taxes in the form of food and some coin, which make them great for armies.

    But I guess the problem is less likely to be a problem for an environment like the Tael-firth -- since you have the sea! It makes for an easy explanation of how armies get supplied whyle away (by the sea).
    That's true, but what I was thinking of is that the Taelshore is where all the people are and hence where all the food is grown.

    I'm wondering what InVinoVeritas will do about sea battle rules; one of the issues I've had during the Rjurik Winds campaign was the idea that some players wanted to "blockade" a province from the sea (cut sea-based traderoutes, prevent units from passing-through without a fight) -- I guess similar to wanting to cut-off supply routes for land-based armies (again, which I tended to ignore anyway).
    Allowing a regent to "occupy" a sea-province sounds realistic enough, but then people talk about running the blockades (without a fight) and DC checks to pass through...
    Blockades are not really practical until much later. Proper blockades are after the Anglo-Dutch wars of the mid 17th century. Earlier blockades, especially with oar driven ships, even with sails, you aren't able to put a longship "on-station" in a blockade for any period of time at all. It has a very small cargo area. The kind of blockades that are possible require a nearby base. And nearby means you can see the object of your blockade and can push off when you see boats entering or leaving whatever you are blockading. That means being able to control either an island (by far the favorite) or a piece of coastline.

    If you are besieging a city, keeping boats ready to sortie is easy enough. If you want to blockade a city without a siege, you need a nearby base.

  2. #32
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Humans vs non-humans is an issue which fascinates me, the ecological impact of elves, goblins and dwarves based on their cultures implies very different land usage to the humans. That said they are all 'player' races so should follow similar mechanics in output terms.

    If the downs are truly monstrous, then even goblins will be scattered and the issue for the Gorgon would be supply lines and speed of passage - a massed army is likely to be avoided by monsters (though pity the scouts and foragers) but still needs food and water, the latter can likely be sourced locally as it should be quite wet, but even so carrying more than 3 days of food is pretty tough, the Downs are rough terrain and much of the army will be on foot, assuming 1 province per day it will take a week minimum to cross, after which the army has to go over some very nasty looking mountains. In that sort of scenario the Gorgon might happily send discrete aid to the Watch, so that it can break the land and build a realm that can be used as a staging post, as otherwise any army that tried to cross would be exhausted when it had done so and far from combat ready.

  3. #33
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    assuming 1 province per day it will take a week minimum to cross.
    A province per day is very fast. Medieval armies were normally happy with 10-12 miles per day. Of course that was under typical conditions. Optimal conditions would be better, and of course we can imagine conditions that would slow an army. These are plentiful in the Giantdowns. But we can point to generalizations which effect advance rates.

    Small forces advance faster than large forces. This is in part a function of friction, but it can be pronounced by bottlenecks to movement because of passes, fords, and bridges.

    Advance rates decline as the duration of the march increases. Rushing from one province to another to get there because a major battle is expected might see men hurry 30 miles in a single day, but as travel distance, travel averages will slow towards expected averages.

    An all out effort can increase the rate of advance (as in the example above) but the costs of exhaustion mean casualties.

    Advance rates are reduced by difficult terrain. The Giantdowns is poor, but not the worst terrain possible.

    A particular example of this is rivers, because their effect on movement is profound. Especially when in hostile country. Rivers cause bottlenecks under the best circumstances, when in hostile country, even when the enemy can't engage your main body, they make everything take longer and cost more.

    Advance rates are correlated to quality and density of roads. The Giantdowns will be poor in this regard.

    Advance is hampered by bad weather. Mists, fog, rain, and worse can slow the movement of troops.

    Advance rates are reduced by poor supply. Mostly because the army spends time foraging.

    Advance rates reflect interactions with friendly and enemy operations. Under ideal conditions there are neither. This amounts to strategic movement. Friendly operations would be scouting and foraging, or attacking, storming, and so on. Anything other than moving.

    I would expect something around six miles per day as the crow flies. Assuming they avoid some of the rougher terrain and until they get to the Silverhead Mountains.

  4. #34
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I was figuring a best case - 20 miles would be hard even assuming minimal supplies, as you note it would probably take a lot longer for a laden army. But then that merely makes it harder for both sides - one can hardly wait for a road and strong of forts to be built across the downs to enable the Gorgon readier access to the highlands...

    Either way a mass invasion is likely to derail most side-plots so I'd probably avoid it.

  5. #35
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Here's a map showing, based only on local production, the logistical capacity of the Taelshore. One can instantly see certain implications. Of little surprise, there is the coastal zone, but the implications are that there is a narrow zone of possible warfare on a large scale. This means its easy to defend on land, and very difficult to defend by sea.

    In a sense this means that the style of war that will be very common would be very like a Viking way of war, where armies get on boats, raid an enemy unexpectedly, and either move on, or press their advantage in a joint land and sea campaign.

    What of flanking operations? Possible for daring commanders but risky, because first you have to cross empty terrain where food, but especially crafted supplies, would be absent, but if things go poorly, your retreat is back into this desert. Historically, this is a high risk, high reward strategy, because when it works, the surprise proves to be the margin of difference, but when it fails, it proves to be catastrophic.

    Some of these areas are simply poorly populated, such the east of Halskapa. Here light raiders could operate normally, or support major operations to the west. Svinik and Rjuvik are divided by wetland however, and this is a much less forgiving.

    Svinik's swamp is smaller, though the empty provinces are still quite empty. But a route of castles and fortifications would very probabaly link Innsmark to Leivika and Bjarnheim. Large armies could move between them resupplying from well provisioned castles on the way.

    Rjuvik has a separate center at Viborg from which the north is controlled.

    Also interesting is the northern band from Innsmark, Jurva, and Gundviir, which is very probabaly a cockpit of warfare, well defended, well armed, and organized for sieges rather than long distance raids. This zone is probabaly most like the high middle ages in warfare.

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