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  1. #11
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    At 01:17 PM 5/7/2002 +0200, the Falcon wrote:

    ><< This seems too simple, easy, convenient and logical to actually be
    >useful.... ;-) This seems a very sensible solution. I`m going to give
    >it a shot once or twice to see how it will work. It might also be useful
    >for figuring out what a "class ability" of a noble character class who had
    >as part of their class additional funds/equipment. >>
    >
    >What do you mean exactly by that last sentence?

    In the Noble character class I wrote up a while back I gave the class a
    "Coffer Key" class ability that basically gave them access to money. I did
    that because nobles should, in general, have access to funds much greater
    than standard characters. I`ve been fiddling around lately with a point
    based system to design character classes and if one has some sort of way of
    determining the value of inventory then it can be compared to the value of
    other class abilities and balanced accordingly.

    Along the same lines, it might also prove useful in BR terms due to the
    amount of wealth a regent can get his hands on. Figuring the "value" of a
    regent`s domain for the purpose of EL could prove very useful.

    >The 1XP:5gp rate is not based on the table you refer to. Rather, it is
    >stated in core rulebooks that a spellcaster charges 5gp for every XP he
    >loses in spellcasting. Also, the DMG states that if an NPC has an item
    >creation feat, you should count items that she has created herself as
    >being 70% of the normal value, when calculating what her gear is worth. It
    >explains that in effect you`re treating the XP cost of item creation as a
    >gp cost instead. Now each item cost gp equal to 1/2 of the market value
    >and XP equal 1/25 of the market value to make. Evidently, 50% of that 70%
    >is the gp cost, which means that the 20% that`s left is the XP cost. 20%
    >is 1/5. If 1/25 of the market value in XP converts to 1/5 of the market
    >value in gp, then 1 XP converts to 1 gp. More proof that 1XP:5gp is official.

    I don`t think they meant for that to get back engineered as XP awards,
    though. In any case, since you`re talking about XP awards in lieu of
    treasure, shouldn`t the formula used to determine that be based on standard
    equipment values, not the value of items created by a character? It seems
    to me that a XP:gp ratio should be based on the more typical PC that
    doesn`t necessarily create a lot of his/her own equipment, particularly at
    lower levels.

    Anyway, I`m not saying it isn`t playable. The gp value and XP progression
    values will be near enough that 1:5 will work for most character levels
    from around 3rd to 12th pretty well. I`m just saying that the 1XP:5gp
    award for not getting gp/magic items curves more dramatically than the
    XP/level table, so that eventually XP earned from "lost gp" surpasses the
    XP needed to reach the next level, meaning characters would be awarded more
    from the lack of treasure troves than defeating the creatures who didn`t
    have any treasure to defend. At levels over 20 the ratio will get much
    broader, so that PCs will eventually derive more XP from the lack of
    treasure than they would from encounters. I don`t know what the gp/level
    table at the Epic level is going to look like, but it if maintains the
    dramatic increases that the DMG suggests then gp/level will be in the tens
    of millions very quickly. At that point the XP:gp award per level would be
    much greater than the amount required to reach the next level. (Actually,
    one reaches this point at 17-18th level.)

    Aside from any of those considerations, I`m opposed to the idea of granting
    XP to compensate for lack of treasure. If one can adjust EL effectively
    based on the value of characters` inventory, then also awarding an XP bonus
    based on the empty pockets of the creatures slain seems like giving them a
    reward for already adjusted encounters. Effectively, it makes creatures of
    the same CR give different XP awards based on the amount of treasure they
    are likely to carry, not how difficult or how many resources were required
    to defeat them, and I`m not so sure I buy that.

    Gary

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  2. #12
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    << Oh, and something else: note that the equipment values for PCs are
    different than those for NPCs. NPC equipment value are very close to
    (slightly less than, to be precise) three times a treasure reward of their
    level. PC equipment values however, are based on the fact that it takes you
    13 1/3 encounters of your level to earn XP to reach the next level, assuming
    a party of four. This also means you get 13 1/3 treasure rewards of your
    level. Again a party of four is assumed, so that means you get ([13 1/3] / 4
    =) 3 1/3 treasure rewards of your level, per level. Of course, you use up
    some of that, so in the end, the equipment value table for PCs is based on
    the assumption that you retain a net amount of 3 treasure rewards of your
    level, per level.
    >>

    To comment on that last sentence of mine: 3 out 3 1/3 is a loss of exactly
    10%, in case you were wondering.

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  3. #13
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    >The 1XP:5gp rate is not based on the table you refer to. Rather, it is
    >stated in core rulebooks that a spellcaster charges 5gp for every XP he
    >loses in spellcasting. Also, the DMG states that if an NPC has an item
    >creation feat, you should count items that she has created herself as
    >being 70% of the normal value, when calculating what her gear is worth. It
    >explains that in effect you`re treating the XP cost of item creation as a
    >gp cost instead. Now each item cost gp equal to 1/2 of the market value
    >and XP equal 1/25 of the market value to make. Evidently, 50% of that 70%
    >is the gp cost, which means that the 20% that`s left is the XP cost. 20%
    >is 1/5. If 1/25 of the market value in XP converts to 1/5 of the market
    >value in gp, then 1 XP converts to 1 gp. More proof that 1XP:5gp is official.

    << I don`t think they meant for that to get back engineered as XP awards,
    though. In any case, since you`re talking about XP awards in lieu of
    treasure, shouldn`t the formula used to determine that be based on standard
    equipment values, not the value of items created by a character? It seems
    to me that a XP:gp ratio should be based on the more typical PC that
    doesn`t necessarily create a lot of his/her own equipment, particularly at
    lower levels.
    >>

    Well, it`s not. The fact is, all the costs and prices in 3E D&D involving
    both gp and XP are based on the rule that 1 XP is worth 5 gp. Not the other
    way around, really.


    << Anyway, I`m not saying it isn`t playable. The gp value and XP
    progression
    values will be near enough that 1:5 will work for most character levels
    from around 3rd to 12th pretty well. I`m just saying that the 1XP:5gp
    award for not getting gp/magic items curves more dramatically than the
    XP/level table, so that eventually XP earned from "lost gp" surpasses the
    XP needed to reach the next level, meaning characters would be awarded more
    from the lack of treasure troves than defeating the creatures who didn`t
    have any treasure to defend. At levels over 20 the ratio will get much
    broader, so that PCs will eventually derive more XP from the lack of
    treasure than they would from encounters. I don`t know what the gp/level
    table at the Epic level is going to look like, but it if maintains the
    dramatic increases that the DMG suggests then gp/level will be in the tens
    of millions very quickly. At that point the XP:gp award per level would be
    much greater than the amount required to reach the next level. (Actually,
    one reaches this point at 17-18th level.)
    >>

    If you want to know exactly how much increase in treasure you`ll have above
    20th level, you can find the answer already in the DMG. There are rules
    there for treasures for ELs greater than 20. Once you know that each new
    character level gives you 3 extra treasures of an EL equal to your previous
    level, in a cumulative manner, then it`s pretty easy to figure it out, if
    you would so desire.


    << Aside from any of those considerations, I`m opposed to the idea of
    granting
    XP to compensate for lack of treasure. If one can adjust EL effectively
    based on the value of characters` inventory, then also awarding an XP bonus
    based on the empty pockets of the creatures slain seems like giving them a
    reward for already adjusted encounters. Effectively, it makes creatures of
    the same CR give different XP awards based on the amount of treasure they
    are likely to carry, not how difficult or how many resources were required
    to defeat them, and I`m not so sure I buy that.
    >>

    No matter what CR the monsters have that you throw at the party, the total
    amount of treasure you give them should always be based on the ELs of the
    encounters you put them through, regardless of how much treasure the MM
    says your beastie should have.

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