Flying units

[Diongham]

I guess in the end irdeggman's comment about keeping it "normal" does have a lot of appeal. And for those who need special units, I suggest training Bats, or developing a unit with similar stats (or slightly improved)

The idea of animal spies is long standing in Fantasy Fiction. The Lord of the Rings' Sauron had crows as spies. You could take that and maybe apply it to Griffins or other such creatures. Why would you need a rider if the creature is seen by itself often and might not draw as much suspicion if flying around alone.

Though in times of war you might want to start adding armor but that could have a significant impact on maneuverability and speed, both of which would negate the advantages of aerial units.

I really like the idea of a unit of falconers stationed on the borders of your lands, a sort of specialized ranger meant for tracking and scouting. Possibly a special connection to there bird of choice where they can "see" through there eyes.

[Birthright-L]

At 02:15 AM 5/5/2009, irdeggman wrote:

>I would be real careful about introducing this type of concept into a BR game.
>
>By adding this as a unit special training option you are essentially
>sayng it is common enough to justify it.

This does raise an interesting question: What kinds of flying units
would actually be realistic in the setting?

Personally, I don`t think "flying units" in the sense of ones that
are given the ability using the equivalent of magic spells or items
are very practical as those things just don`t exist in enough
abundance to justify whole units raised for that purpose. Magically
enlarged mounts are possible, though that falls prey to the same
problem as spells or magical items.

However, there are a lot of flying creatures that could serve as
troops or mounts for troops, and they might be bred in large enough
numbers to lead to whole units. By way of comparison, consider the
existence of varsk ranches in, arguably, one of the least civilized
portions of the continent. Those are pretty fantastical mounts and
ones that would appear to be more difficult to breed than, say,
hippogriffs or even the giant versions of a few animals. Griffons
are a possibility.

Gary

[Rey]

Varsk are just riding lizards, certainly vicious, but adapted mainly to snow conditions. They could be harder to tame then perhaps a mustang, but still they do not fly, nor are they of any use in, let's say, a desert.

[Elrond]

I’ve taken into consideration many of your argumentations (thank you all) and I changed the unit description as follows:

Cavalry units with this special training ride griffons, hippogrifs, pegasi or other similar flying creatures with a land speed of 30+, are equipped with light or medium armor and fight with missile weapons, lances or medium martial weapons. Usually they exploit their tactical superiority by making strafing charges or firing at the enemy from above.
When attacking while flying, these units ignore any defensive bonus their target would normally receive from fortification or defensive terrain. They can’t fly in inclement or worse weather conditions or with limited visibility and can’t attack, in flight, a unit in an area of thick vegetation (forest, jungle). Unit modifier: Melee +2, missile +0, movement +1 while flying, +4 GB muster cost. Special: While flying, the unit may enter an area occupied by a non flying friendly unit and can be engaged only by other flying units. If a flying unit makes a distance flying attack against a land-based unit, the enemy unit may respond normally with a distance attack if it didn’t already attack in that round, but with a -2 penalty. Archer units don’t suffer this penalty. A flying unit that begins the round unengaged and ends the round engaged and with at least one area worth of movement left may make a strafing charge with an additional +2 bonus to its melee attack. The attacked unit may respond normally but with a -2 penalty. Only pike and archer units don’t suffer this penalty and pikes deal double damage against the charging unit. A flying unit that made a distance flying attack or a strafing charge ends the round in the area of the attack and at a flight altitude that allows enemy units to make a distance attack. As part of its movement, a flying unit may spend a movement point to land or take off but enemy units present in the area where the maneuver is performed get an attack of opportunity. Of course, flying units may also attack like a normal cavalry unit. Flying units can engage naval units if the battle takes place close to dry land (“shallow water” terrain) but can’t land or take off from naval units. This special training is available only to cavalry units with medium, light or no armor. Flying units are extremely rare in Cerilia and the DM shoul be very careful about allowing regents to recruit them.

[Birthright-L]

At 01:25 AM 5/6/2009, Rey wrote:

>Varsk are just riding lizards, certainly vicious, but adapted mainly
>to snow conditions. They could be harder to tame then perhaps a
>mustang, but still they do not fly, nor are they of any use in,
>let`s say, a desert.

"When varsks fly...." A new Vos idiom.

I mentioned varsks as an example of existing "ranches" of fantasy
creatures that exist in the BR canon. We actually have an unusual
amount of information on what the effects of creating a varsk ranch
are and how it influences the troops a regent can raise, so it works
as an example of how a regent might do something similar with, say,
hippogriffs. If a regent can start up a guild holding that
represents control over varsk breeding, couldn`t one do the same
thing with a flying mount or some sort of trainable flying creatures?

Just to extend the weirdness a little further: What if someone wanted
to train a unit of soldiers that each had some sort of fighting
animal rather than a mount? For example, we could have a unit of
"Anuirean Dogmasters," "Rjurik Beartrainers" or even "Khinasi
Liontamers." Now, we might extend the concept a bit further into
flying creatures. Mongols often use golden eagles to hunt, and it`s
said that those birds can bring down a wolf and even a
man.... Imagine a unit of "Brecht Falconers" or maybe "Elf Eagle
Troops." The stats for such a unit might get us closer to the
concept of troops mounted on actual flying creatures. Besides, it
seems to me there could easily be such units that`d add color and
character to the existing troop types.

Gary

[Rey]

I'd say that's certainly a fine idea and should be worked out. If thought out carefully we may see some new units, but only after making a careful consideration and a lot of playtesting. If the goal is not to disrupt the balance that exist in cerilia, perhaps aduria would be a better choice. It's large, unexplored, wild and maybe more suitable for such an endeavor.

[Green Knight]

It is also mentioned that the Sidhe realm smack in the middle of Khinasi lands (forget the name) has some fliers, but I don't recall then having any unit cards to represent that.

[Gheal]

It's Innishiere, IIRC. But these elven knights have enchanted steeds, not creatures with native ability to fly.
And I like the idea about breeding exotic mounts as varsks. First, you must obtain a guild holding with beast-producing industry or about 200 said beasts (at least partially tamed)...
Good goal for the whole campaign. Cerilia is magic-sparse setting (even if some magic can be extremely powerful). Magic creatures are rare and can be found mostly in the elven lands. So, elven ruler, after 6-8 levels of quests, covert actions and diplomacy...

[cyrano24100]

I’ve taken into consideration many of your argumentations (thank you all) and I changed the unit description as follows:

Cavalry units with this special training ride griffons, hippogrifs, pegasi or other similar flying creatures with a land speed of 30+, are equipped with light or medium armor and fight with missile weapons, lances or medium martial weapons. Usually they exploit their tactical superiority by making strafing charges or firing at the enemy from above.
When attacking while flying, these units
1. ignore any defensive bonus their target would normally receive from fortification or defensive terrain.
2. They can’t fly in inclement or worse weather conditions or with limited visibility and can’t attack, in flight, a unit in an area of thick vegetation (forest, jungle).

Unit modifier: Melee +2, missile +0, movement +1 while flying, +4 GB muster cost.

Special: While flying, the unit may enter an area occupied by a non flying friendly unit and can be engaged only by other flying units. If a flying unit makes a distance flying attack against a land-based unit, the enemy unit may respond normally with a distance attack if it didn’t already attack in that round, but with a -2 penalty. Archer units don’t suffer this penalty. A flying unit that begins the round unengaged and ends the round engaged and with at least one area worth of movement left may make a strafing charge with an additional +2 bonus to its melee attack. The attacked unit may respond normally but with a -2 penalty. Only pike and archer units don’t suffer this penalty and pikes deal double damage against the charging unit. A flying unit that made a distance flying attack or a strafing charge ends the round in the area of the attack and at a flight altitude that allows enemy units to make a distance attack.

As part of its movement, a flying unit may spend a movement point to land or take off but enemy units present in the area where the maneuver is performed get an attack of opportunity. Of course, flying units may also attack like a normal cavalry unit. Flying units can engage naval units if the battle takes place close to dry land (“shallow water” terrain) but can’t land or take off from naval units. This special training is available only to cavalry units with medium, light or no armor. Flying units are extremely rare in Cerilia and the DM shoul be very careful about allowing regents to recruit them.

Ok, first of all repeat:flying units do exist: Blood Skull bats (http://www.rjurikwinds.com/images/warcard_bs_bats.gif), and their only advantage is ignore terrain. so I agree with you first few points

I still think that in the "special" abilities you note -- the unit should not be able to enter an area occupied by non-flyers; your griffons cant stay up all day/night: they need a place to stay for the night, and your unit might include non-flying elements who are charged with providing to the flying elements (food, grooming... pegasi in particular, they have to be pretty particular about being combed every day, and fed three buckets full of cotton candy -- which is HUGELY difficult to get right!)

[cyrano24100]

It is also mentioned that the Sidhe realm smack in the middle of Khinasi lands (forget the name) has some fliers, but I don't recall then having any unit cards to represent that.

I'd love to know about these; I don't have the Khinasi book; was it anything like pegasi/ or still similar to blood skull bats?