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  1. #1
    Member Noquar's Avatar
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    Blood type/alignment and regency

    I had an idea I would like to share in regards to how blood abilities and ruling is perceived.

    Birthright seems to be partially built around the idea that rulers are truly ordained by the gods to rule. In fact containing or manifesting godly power on the prime plane. So Gods gain power from worshipers and kings gain power from subjects (or land, this is not clear). It seems to me that the link between king and land is a little weak in BR. It seems odd that the regency/ blood ability system seems very detached from the way a ruler cares for his lands. The book claims that when a ruler governs his realm well the land prospers and when not the land and people suffer. I see very little close connection between the two. For instance a ruler could simply neglect his realm and be a war lord and still gain lots of regency but could never sustain a real for long and anytime he was not warring he would be loosing regency. For instance, as far as I can tell the Gorgons realm could not maintain its self or generate regency based on province levels and such. His army is far too large, his provinces to weak and his realm very unproductive. I guess what I’m implying is the current blood to land connection doesn’t make sense to me. To inconsistent and no clear pattern of ruler to realm influence.

    I propose an alternate idea that ruler regency and gold collection be based on duel factors of alignment and blood type. This would create benefits to different ruling styles and blood type rewards. For instance a ruler with Anduiras blood would gain more from good church strength and positive subject loyalty. Reynir maybe gets more reg for low province levels but not non-existent province levels. Vorynn may get bonus for high sources. This could be adjusted for alignment also. A LE priest might have a anduiras blood line and force his religion on his subjects thinking he is doing his gods will, or know he is not and using his blood line to take advantage of worshipers for his own goals. This would create a duel influence on regency and make a ruler of azrai blood that is tyrant gain regency for causing war and manipulating subjects...basically being a tyrant. This style makes more sense to me than the current system.

    I just wanted to throw out the idea and see what people think of it. Keep in mind that the above is NOT a comprehensive explanation or fully developed idea. So with all do respect please do not cut hairs on all the examples. Please focus on the main theme of the idea and how it could be developed further or possible problems that might be created.

    Thank you for you time.

  2. #2
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    Interesting. A new RP regime might capture what you're going for, tying RP to more to action than to assets. It might well be more complex this way, but could be interesting. I have been in favor of tying RP more to bloodline derivation than to class for some time, anyway. Fits better with the "divine" concept of the bloodline, since the deities have portfolios/areas of influence.

    I'll outline below some ideas that have some relation to class, but tie most RP income to bloodline derivation, and Bonus RP (in addition to any other more standard RP rewards) based on actual actions taken.

    Each class would grant 1/2 RP from one particular holding type, as a base. Each class would also grant Bonus RP for taking a particular action, such as (note that this is a 4e approach):
    Leader Martial classes (Law) grant 1RP for every 10GB worth of Elite units
    Defender Martial classes (Law) grant 1RP for every Castle 2 or higher
    Striker Martial classes (Guild) grant 1RP for every successful Espionage action
    Divine classes (Temple) grant 1RP for every successful Agitate action or Contest action against an enemy of the faith.
    Arcane classes (Source) grant 1RP for every Realm spell successfully researched.
    Primal classes (tricky; Temple, Law, or Source) grant 1RP for every holding or trade route successfully Contested.

    Bloodline Derivation and RP:
    All derivations grant full RP from Provinces and 1/2 RP from Temple holdings of the appropriate deity or an aligned deity. Note that this means that divine classes with an inappropriate bloodline don't do well when leading temples opposed to their derivation.

    Anduiras--Gain 1/2 Law RP, +1 RP from each step of province loyalty over Average. Gain 2 bonus RP for each military victory during campaigns sanctioned by a Temple of Haelyn or Cuiraecen.

    Basaia--Gain 1/2 Source RP, +1 RP from each province level 4 or higher (centers of learning, civilization). Gain 1 bonus RP for each successful Research action, 4 for closing any portal to the Shadow World.

    Brenna--Gain 1/2 Guild RP, +1 RP for every Guild level 3 or higher. Gain 1 bonus RP for each successful Trade Route formed across Realm boundaries.

    Masela--Gain 1/2 Guild RP, +1 RP for every Coastal province. Gain 1 bonus RP for each 10GB of ships built.

    Reynir--Gain 1/2 Law RP, +1/2 RP from each point of Source potential in provinces where has a presence. Gain 1 bonus RP for each victory against Goblinkind or each level of Province pillaged (down to 3).

    Vorynn--Gain 1/2 Source RP, +1 RP for each province of level 3 or under. Gain 1 bonus RP for each Realm spell cast and for each battle fought.

    Azrai--Gain 1/2 Law RP or 1/2 Source RP, +1 RP for each province under Severe taxation or under Occupation. Gain 1 bonus RP for each battle fought, each Contest action, each negative Agitate action, each Espionage action.

    Derivations could also be tied to terrain/climate:
    Anduiras--+1 RP for each Plains or Hills province.
    Basaia--+1 RP for each Desert or Plains province.
    Brenna--+1 RP for each Plains or River province.
    Masela--+1 RP for each Coastal or River province.
    Reynir--+1 RP for each Forest or Mountains province.
    Vorynn--+1 RP for each cold weather province.

    Azrai--+1 RP for each Vos, Goblin/Orog, or Elf province.


    Regency losses could also be tied to derivations, but it would make things more complex. For example:
    Anduiras--Lose 2 RP for each uncontested Evil temple holding in provinces where has a presence, lose 2 RP for each battle fought without blessing of a Temple of Haelyn or Cuiraecen.


    I would only limit RP income to bloodline strength for income from holdings and provinces. All other types of RP income should be bonus on top of that bloodline amount; this would more truly reflect the original intent that wise/appropriate rulership would allow one's domain and bloodline to prosper. It would also help ensure that scions with appropriate bloodlines to the various domains would have an edge over others, even others with larger scores.
    Last edited by Rowan; 03-20-2009 at 09:41 PM.

  3. #3
    Member Noquar's Avatar
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    read my mind

    Good stuff. Very well thought out. Thanks.

    your ideas Look like a good mix of current regency methods and new blood line type ideas. that make more sense to me. I would still like to mix in an alignment factor , but it would only be a slight modification. You got about 90% of what i was going after. I am a big fan of creating campaigns that blur the lines between good and evil. A "moral dilemma" campaign were the PC's never know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are......keeps drama in the decisions they make and consequences of them (sorry tangent). That's why I like adding alignment aspect in because a blood line does not effect how a person uses it. I woiuld like to see evil anduiras and good azrai .........causing deception and such with in the royalty and church ect......but maybe that's over kill

    Thanks for the great feed back............most impressive

  4. #4
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    No problem. I like coming up with possible solutions.

    As for alignment, were you thinking of rewarding behavior that is true to alignment?

    I personally would only be in favor of rewarding behavior that is true to the ideals of the bloodline derivation. Or, better yet IMO, rewarding behavior that is Good, altruistic, self-sacrificial.

    I would do that with minor, major, and great regency gains, or with direct bloodline increases for heroic actions. I had a chart somewhere of guidelines for rewards for heroic actions. I'll see if I can find it.

  5. #5
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I like the comment in Wyrd Sisters, the land doesn't care if its king is good or bad, only if he cares for the land...

    But it would be interesting to build on the hale and hearty lord = good land and vice versa idea, which was said in the Prospectus and not mentioned much after.

    So, healthy lord + heir = loyalty bonus (further exacerbating the scion:unbvlooded ruler split) no heir or illness could be a minor penalty to loyalty, and both no heir and a dying ruler could cripple it.

    But each bloodline having bonus's and gaining RP from specific actions sounds like a great idea, how about:

    Anduiras - law actions or loyalty links
    Azrai - intrigue, diplomacy, war links
    Basaia - law or magic links
    Brenna - guild and trade links, maybe diplomacy.
    Reynir - the other 'law' god, add war and maybe source links
    Masela - trade, diplomacy, loyalty.

    So law links good be, say, a bonus to ruling up law or defending against law contests, with RP gains for ruling provinces with high loyalty and so on.

    Ideally of course you'd have at least 2 holding types benefiting from each - and possibly even a holding whose actinos suffers for a given bloodline...

    I would incidentally keep the lord and land somewhat distant - source holdings draw from the land, but other sources draw from people - who might be collectively termed 'the land' but have little obvious link to it otherwise - the Land's Choice always seemed to be to be the 'everyone expects it to be Buggins turn so Buggins is the heir' approach to avoiding nasty questions.


    The Gorgon incidentally is loaded when you add in vassals, and most of his troops are dirt cheap (goblins at .25 GB?) Don't underestimate that 100+ RP a turn's payment power either - 5:1 exchange rate is still fine if you get 100+ RP a turn.

  6. #6
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    This is something that has to be viewed from another, much wider, angle. Which areas of Aebrynis respond to the same scheme as Cerilia? Is Cerilia the only continent that responds to the blooded scions, and do they only live here? How did the land respond before Deismaar, or did it "come alive" after the disaster? How were the first blooded regents recognized as rightful rulers?

    If Cerilia is the only continent that works like this, then perhaps Aduria and the rest of the world are not playable because the whole birthright concept fails. What happens if a blooded individual steps on another continent, does his power vane, can his blood be stolen?

    Maybe I'm taking this too far, but if you can answer these questions, perhaps many things would be solved. Maybe it doesn't matter who rules the realm, perhaps the blood in him is enough. Or maybe there is ritual that has to be fulfilled to become a ruler, like Tuarhievel's Thorn Throne.
    What is enough, how did it work before?
    When did Ghoigwnnwd make tighmaevril weapons that are so special for one thing...
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

  7. #7
    Senior Member The Swordgaunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rey View Post
    Is Cerilia the only continent that responds to the blooded scions, and do they only live here? How did the land respond before Deismaar, or did it "come alive" after the disaster? How were the first blooded regents recognized as rightful rulers?
    I've always interpreted the mythos in a Before/After Deismaar kind of way. After the cataclysmic death of the gods on the slopes of Mt. Deismaar those who survived were imbued with the essence of the dead gods. Those who stood them closest "caught so much of the blast" that they were blown to Kingdom come, so to speak. Thus Haelyn, Erik, and the rest of the younger gods ascended. Those who were further away (figuratively speaking) became the founders of the new noble bloodlines.

    In the same manner, the land was infused with the power of the old gods, thus tying the scions to the land. I've always thought that since the war against Azrai were a global war, all continents were infused in the same way. However, I've also figured that the further away from Deismaar, the lower the fallout from the cataclysm.

    On the topic: I think a more nuanced approach to bloodlines is a neat idea. My only concern is that it may become too intricate to support a fluid game-play. As it is, I find that many would be Birthrighters are scared away by the bookeeping.

    Then again, I've always been a sworn opponent of every rule that diverts attention from the roleplaying
    -Harald

    Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.

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  8. #8
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    At 08:15 AM 3/21/2009, Rey wrote:
    >This is something that has to be viewed from another, much wider, angle. Which areas of Aebrynis respond to the same scheme as Cerilia? Is Cerilia the only continent that responds to the blooded scions, and do they only live here?

    The powers of the scions appears to be pretty much the same on all of Aebrynis, not just Cerilia. There`s no absolutely direct statement to that effect in the original materials, but there are a few things that can be taken as evidence. First, there are colonies of Cerilian scions on other continents. At least, there`s one: Mieres. But there appears to be more than just that one if other possibilities are taken into account. The Rjurik have far flung colonial efforts too. Second, ley lines can travel over water up to 150 miles. Now, that`s not really to another continent, of course, but the implication is that one could have source holdings further afield than that, so that would seem to indicate that scions could operate pretty far from Cerilia. There aren't really a lot of bodies of water that stretch that far that aren't continental, so the restriction seems to indicate that someone could create a source holding any number of miles away and try to connect it to a province in Cerilia. One couldn't do that unless bloodline works the same way all over the planet. Third, there are transplanted scions to the Ravenloft world. If scions can travel to another planet/material plane/campaign world and retain their abilities surely they can go to another continent.

    There`s not much to indicate how the land responded before Deismaar, or if it responded at all. Personally, I don't see a lot of evidence for bloodlines or anything like them before the BoD other than the existence of the Lost, and IMO those guys are something very different. So how did people rule? Well, I think they probably ruled the same way people rule everywhere else--through a system of political influence, control and favors that has no actual magical manifestation in bloodline or regency. That`s not a particularly satisfying answer, I know, but that`s kind of the point. Something very different is going on with bloodline and regency; hence the importance of the setting. The BRCS 3.5 update did have material that would allow a non-regent to have a domain, and that was expressly done to extend the concepts of the domain level of play outside of the setting, but I`ve personally always found that problematic because I don`t think rulership works anywhere else the way it does in the BR setting.

    >How did the land respond before Deismaar, or did it "come alive" after the disaster?

    I think the land literally came alive after the battle. The Land's Choice indicates (to me, at least) that something woke up in the land itself after the battle. Maybe it was always there and was suddenly given a set of tools to use that mortals (and elves) could recognize, or maybe it wasn't there at all before Deismaar and the battle "awakened" the Land itself like a vast, planet-wide spell. Personally, I favor the latter interpretation, but it seems to me that the Land`s Choice is a planet-wide phenomena, not just a Cerilian one. It could be the continent rather than the planet, and that interpretation would actually explain a few things, but on the whole it seems more sensible to me that Aebrynis has some sort of life itself rather than just Cerilia because then we run into troubles with things like the Mieres colony and just about anyone who sets sail being "out of reach" of the Land`s Choice. I don`t see any indication that a Vassal, heir or other scion somehow loses contact with a Regent, benefactor or holding by travelling away from the continent.

    >How were the first blooded regents recognized as rightful rulers?

    First off, the domain level works at a much faster pace than would seem normal. One could, potentially, start up and rule three provinces to level 10 in under 3 years. It`s kind of hard to imagine a non-blooded character doing the same. So the first blooded regentsly likely were recognized by the simple pragmatic ability to rule more effectively than non-blooded characters.

    Secondly, it`s probably important to remember that those who became blooded were very often already nobles. Lots of commoners (lower case C) also got bloodlines at the BoD, but so did their commanders. So a lot of the regents were simply returning to their homelands to rule once more. I`m sure there was a lot of upheaval as those who returned took over from those who stayed behind, but isn`t it the nature of a cataclysmic battle of the gods that most people of consequence would want to be in attendance? I suspect a large percentage of the people in rulership positions were already there....

    >What happens if a blooded individual steps on another continent, does his power vane, can his blood be stolen?

    I don`t think a scion loses his bloodline or abilities when he leaves Cerilia as noted, so I think it would work the same way on another continent as it does "back home." Note, however, that most of the folks on that other continent aren`t going to know how bloodline works, so the priests wouldn't be able to conduct investiture ceremonies, establish heirs, etc. Bloodtheft would work the same way, but in the original materials bloodline could not normally be transferred from a scion to a commoner through bloodtheft, so that`s less likely unless one is using different rules.

    Gary
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 03-24-2009 at 10:50 PM. Reason: Vertical length.

  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rey View Post
    How were the first blooded regents recognized as rightful rulers?
    I think that many of the people who went off to Diesmaar were leaders already. So those who returned mightily enhanced returned to their halls. Those who returned had been with the leader and were also mightily enhanced in experience and in blood power. Finally, I think there was a band of brothers sense to who had been at Diesmaar which meant scions supported one another against non-scions.

    The Empire spread almost overnight to Khinasi and Brechtur. And after a single battle, and a brief campaign, Rjurik accepted the Empire too. Its almost as though scions replaced everyone at home, and then these scions accepted Roele as their leader, as it was Diemaar (given that Haelyn was unavailable, having accended).

    Whatever the answer to this question is, it has to account for one of our few clear canon facts, the timeline of Empire and its nearly bloodless expansion to Vosgaard.

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    Whatever the answer to this question is, it has to account for one of our few clear canon facts, the timeline of Empire and its nearly bloodless expansion to Vosgaard.
    I don't think enough is made of this - so rapid a growth shows to me that th Empire was merely a veneer for the most part - with no realm intent to overturn major cultural precepts.

    You have, what, a single generation? For Roele to unify Anuire, fight a brief battle with the Rjurik, and for them to join him? For Roele to absorb the Basrji/Masetian and Brecht, and fight several campaigns against the Vos? Alexander the Great, eat your heart out...

    I'm thinking that, Azrai being sneaky, quite possibly a lot of 'leaders' of one sort or another that did not join him were assassinated leaving the field reasonably open - so scions, having a natural ability to lead, were quickly assimilated/elevated into the ruling class.

    Similarly after Deismaar there were probably masses of marauding goblins, beast-men, Vos, etc, and that as such the time was ripe for the first culture to unite to sweep up the rest - isolated towns, even cities, would be much more willing to exchange security for service if they were threatened, if the empire ensured a 'light touch' - rule through locals for the most part, plum posts for the existing ruling class, etc then it could grow very quickly. That wouldn't stop it playing hardball later, but initially at least it must have been an assimilator not a conqueror empire.

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