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  1. #11
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Hmm, I know that non-blooded mages (except elves) can't be wizards, but I don't recall a ban on the reverse being true. I think it was just generally assumed that there was no point being a magician if you could be a wizard with magicians mostly being a way of having mages in the game but keeping 'real' magic rare.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arentak View Post
    I had a player who reviewed the rules, and decided he wanted to be a Magician, because of the skill points, and the way the online version created at this site does regency collection, skills are all that matter for a regent.
    Whats wrong with making a blooded magician? The increased skill points compensate for the lack of spell ability from a mechanics perspective. I'm a pretty hardcore fascist when it comes to meta-gaming, it is my biggest pet peeve. If a player rolls up with a "this character has the best stats/racials/etc." mentality i send them back to the drawing board. If they come up with the story of a character and it fits, even if its a half-dragon bard/monk/sorcerer/paladin/berserker/bartender i'm ok with it.

    If you are worried about the magician unbalancing your campaign, keep in mind that they will always be unmatched against a rogue or wizard. Hybrids are always weaker.

  3. #13
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiryk View Post
    Whats wrong with making a blooded magician?
    I have always thought it just wasn't possible (or necessary). The magician class has always existed solely as a way for nonblooded people to become wannabe wizards. IMO, "a blooded magician" is precisely "a wizard." We discussed years ago (before there was a web site) what would happen to an unblooded magician who somehow gained a bloodline; my opinion, which ISTR being commonly held, was that his character class would change from magician to wizard.
    Last edited by ryancaveney; 12-31-2008 at 07:13 PM. Reason: typo

  4. #14
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    We discussed this problem with regard to Rogr Aglondier

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4118

    Rogr was unblooded as an apprentice, and hence a magician, while his stat block calls him a wizard 3, now that he is a regent. Rogr's entry on the wiki now includes a big note about this.

    Since the magician is a full PC class (rather than an NPC class) having characters suddenly go from magician to wizard is rather like having characters go from paladin to fighter. In the sense that they loose a lot of abilities and gain a bigger potential palet of spellcasting. One can argue for class retraining (such as in Unearthed Arcana), but it is a bit disconcerting to go from a skills heavy to a skills light class.

    I'm not sure how common a problem this is. If its Rogr's alone, I'm happy to call it a curiosity. If its more common, it may need a fix. The easiest fix is to stack magician and wizard spellcasting.

  5. #15
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    We discussed this problem with regard to Rogr Aglondier
    What I had in mind was more our discussion of December 2002: http://www.birthright.net/forums/showpost.php?p=11267

    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    Since the magician is a full PC class (rather than an NPC class) having characters suddenly go from magician to wizard is rather like having characters go from paladin to fighter. In the sense that they loose a lot of abilities and gain a bigger potential palet of spellcasting. One can argue for class retraining (such as in Unearthed Arcana), but it is a bit disconcerting to go from a skills heavy to a skills light class.
    IMO, wizard should be strictly better than magician at all things, so everyone would switch if they could. I give wizards more skills (because learning the same amount of magic takes a lot less time when you're blooded), better access to weapons (ditto) and armor (IMO, arcane spell failure is a problem of magicians and unblooded priests, but not wizards and blooded priests; in fact, IMC there is no "priest" class at all -- they're just multiclassed wizards or magicians with centrally-issued spellbooks), and everything else. I don't even try to balance having a bloodline vs. not, since the first several years of that discussion convinced me it was both impossible and unnecessary.

  6. #16
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    For my own purposes, being blooded is like having a PC class, and being unblooded is like having an NPC class. I don't see a reason anyone should ever play an unblooded character.

    What kind of party is king, king, peasant hero?

    King Edward, the Archbishop of Canturbury, and a talented blacksmith from Hartlepoole were discussing a possible war with France.

    His Excellency the Archsbishop of Arles summoned his Astrologer and a pick-pocket from Marsailles to provide answers.

    Unblooded characters make fine followers, cohorts, lieutenants, spear-carriers, and other kinds of NPC's when you want to have something like that. But PC's?

    The transfer you mention on the 2002 thread seems like it would work very nicely under the class retraining principles in Unearthed Arcana.

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