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  1. #21
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    Thanks, Kgauck. I have come around to your POV, I think, though I think the situation is best explained either by opening up Provinces to be just like any other holding (something you seem fond of), adding Manor holdings as I've worked out, or a combination of the two. That way, pure temple holdings do represent primarily organizations subsisting on tithes and minor production, not sufficient for producing a surplus (my Resource rules variant represented only significant surplus resources). The RP and GB comes from those sources. Pure temple holdings, allowed to exist on their own (not taxed routinely by landed regents or prevented from maintaining assets and military units), appear to have as much power as any other holding type, and as much to do with their incomes.

    I agree that more holdings represent a more powerful Temple domain. If you want to represent the medieval Church, the whole of Anuire would either be a single Temple domain or a series of Temple domains envassaled to a Primate--the Imperial Temple. To represent the Church at the height of its power, it would hold numerous law holdings and manor holdings, representing its legal control of different areas and the land of its noble clergy. Some provinces (like the Papal States) would be entirely under the control of the Church. Imagine this arrangement across almost the whole of Cerilia (if it is considered to be the size of Europe) and you'd have a Temple as powerful as the Roman Catholic Church at the height of its temporal power.

    If placed more within the late Renaissance times that Anuire typically is played in, an analogue to the RCC would have fewer provinces, manor, and law holdings, but would still hold the majority of temple holdings.

    I agree with you, too, AT, that the pantheistic nature of BR lends itself more to fractioning of a Temple than it does to a united one. That and the political disunity would encourage a proliferation of the smaller, more localized temples to persist.

    So I think, as far as the original discussion, that there really isn't a problem with the temples as written. They don't need to be included in a Resources rules variant, since they don't produce a significant surplus. And while I asked about what they would spend all their income on, the answer is in the other thread on visions of play. My takeaway from that was that temples should indeed be allowed to raise and maintain military units, and they should not be subject by default to any sort of income tax or limitation of their activities by landed regents. This is, of course, the default rules, and games that impose the restrictions I've mentioned throw off the game balance and create story implications at their own risk. It does appear, however, that it would be good for the rules to allow more of a benefit from public works and the maintenance of public assets; this would provide another area to spend money and effort and would introduce an interesting facet of game play.

  2. #22
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    Nothing particularly against religion, but not much for churches - they tend to put the politics in and ignore the positive aspects.

    Tithes and so on are fine, but holding income is 'profit' at the macro level - subsistence for members and pensions really don't cut it - so I'd expect that most temples have at least much of their internal resource needs taken care of via their own efforts. That said I agree that if there is a tithe system, or similar, then that could easily produce all the income necessary. Certainly a 'real' medieval style church would need masses of non-temple holdings to represent its true influence.

    I like the idea of 'province' holdings - currently if I want a mixed population of elves and rjurik, or goblins and anuireans, what can I do? Same land space, very different realms...

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