Territories of the Original 12 Duchies

[Benjamin]

In many of the books and guides for Birthright, the original 12 Duchies are mentioned. Some of them still exist, while others have vanished. My concern with history is this: what provinces belonged to which Duchy?

Some are pretty obvious. Alamie and Tuornen were once united into one huge Duchy. But were all those provinces Alamie, or were some of them part of Ghieste? Looking at the maps, it would make sense that Traiward and Maesford would belong to Ghieste. Or maybe not.

The biggest mystery, though, lies in the south. Through various sources it is obvious that Roesone is carved out of Diemed, but also from Aerenwe. Everyone knows that Bellam was recently part of Aerenwe, but looking at a map, that seems pretty ridiculous that only Bellam was part of the Forest Kingdom. I believe that Roesone actually captured Fairfield, Edlin, Duerlin and Abbatuor from Aerenwe and only the provinces of Ghoried and Caercas from Diemed. This is also supported by the idea that Medoere was taken from provinces of Eastern Diemed. If most of Roesone had been Diemed, then Medoere would have been central, not eastern.

Anyway, I wanted to start this discussion thread to discuss the various borders of the 12 Duchies. This would provide modern regents additional reasons to attack neighboring states and add new twists to old plots. It would also fulfill my own inate curiousity. Thanks!

[Temujin]

Some changes of boundaries that I know about:
Diemed: used to include all of Medoere and Roesone except Bellam. Ilien was a county of Diemed that was granted independence in exchange for vassalage, to the old court wizards of Diemed: The Aglondier line.
Aerenwe: Used to also include Bellam.
Ghieste and Bhalaene: Each of them roughly half of Ghoere.
Alamie: Included most of Tuornen, see Avanil below.
Avanil: Included the three southern province of Tuornen.
Brosengae: I think it also used to have the bordering province of Taeghas(Brosien iirc), but I'm not sure when.
Cariele: Also included one or two provinces from the Five Peaks iirc.

The rest of the boundaries seem to have remained consistant despite the changes of allegiance and constant civil war in Anuire, somehow.

[Benjamin]

Orginally posted by Temujin
Some changes of boundaries that I know about:
Diemed: used to include all of Medoere and Roesone except Bellam. Ilien was a county of Diemed that was granted independence in exchange for vassalage, to the old court wizards of Diemed: The Aglondier line.
Aerenwe: Used to also include Bellam.


I agree that Aerenwe had Bellam - that is very clear. But Bellam went over to Roesone not long ago - like 50 years or so (current Count of Bellam's parents were loyal to Aerenwe). Roesone has existed for longer than that, and was supposed to have been carved out of both Diemed and Aerenwe. So what part was Aerenwe?

Ghieste and Bhalaene: Each of them roughly half of Ghoere.

Yup, for sure. Looking at the maps, I would guess that Ghieste included: Tireste, Ghiere, Tornilen, Rhumannen and Bheline, with the rest of modern Ghoere going to Bhalaene. However, these would have been two small duchies in comparison, which is why I think they might have included some other provinces somewhere. I think that Bheline could have gone to Bhalaene while Traiward and Maesford went to Ghieste, although this is purely conjectural based on province boundary shapes.

Alamie: Included most of Tuornen, see Avanil below.
Avanil: Included the three southern province of Tuornen.

Interesting idea. I've never thought of that before, but it makes sense. Avanil was the most powerful vassal to the Emperor, so should have had lots of lands.

BTW, any idea if the Emperors controlled anything more than just the CoA directly? Perhaps the province of Anuire? Or maybe Mieres and the other (lost) colonies?

Brosengae: I think it also used to have the bordering province of Taeghas(Brosien iirc), but I'm not sure when.

This also makes a lot of sense looking at province shapes. I wonder if anyone else can point out some supporting evidence for this idea, though, because I don't recall anything to this regard.

Cariele: Also included one or two provinces from the Five Peaks iirc.

I have to say I'm not sure about this, although logically it would make sense. If you add just Puinol to Cariele you get a really odd shaped realm. Adding Floodspaeth or Torain, or even both, creates a realm with a really narrow middle part between Doom's Peak and Torien's Watch. Maybe the two eastern most provinces of Thurazor were part of Cariele? This would make it a more globular realm, which seems to be the norm. Maybe Puinol, Doom's Peak and Mergarrote?

Were Thurazor and Five Peaks around during the time of the founding of Empire? If so, why didn't Roele destroy them? He seemed to dislike goblins quite a bit for siding with Azrai. He marched a massive army northward to conquer Dhoesone, so it's not like he didn't have the opportunity. And he would have marched right through them. Or did they form at a later date? Anyone have an idea?

The rest of the boundaries seem to have remained consistant despite the changes of allegiance and constant civil war in Anuire, somehow.

I agree with you on this one, although I'm not sure why it is so. Elinie was a Duchy, but could have expanded into Coeranys or Markazor some. Coeranys was simply a border march which would have been easy pickings for Elinie or Osoerde. It's hard to believe that in the past 500 years of interregnum that not a single ruler has expanded his/her realm any.

[Temujin]

Orginally posted by Benjamin
I agree that Aerenwe had Bellam - that is very clear. But Bellam went over to Roesone not long ago - like 50 years or so (current Count of Bellam's parents were loyal to Aerenwe). Roesone has existed for longer than that, and was supposed to have been carved out of both Diemed and Aerenwe. So what part was Aerenwe?

The Roesone Player's Secret could prove useful for that part, I have it, just not handy right now, but as I recall, every of those provinces were part of Diemed, since the only conflict between Roesone and Aerenwe erupted as Diemed got them to make an alliance in exchange for some lands in Roesone iirc, which is when Roesone took over Bellam. I could see Abbatuor being a part of Aerenwe in the past, I just don't find any sources for that.

Orginally posted by Benjamin
Yup, for sure. Looking at the maps, I would guess that Ghieste included: Tireste, Ghiere, Tornilen, Rhumannen and Bheline, with the rest of modern Ghoere going to Bhalaene. However, these would have been two small duchies in comparison, which is why I think they might have included some other provinces somewhere. I think that Bheline could have gone to Bhalaene while Traiward and Maesford went to Ghieste, although this is purely conjectural based on province boundary shapes.

If I recall correctly, your borders are correct except that Bheline belonged to Bhalaene rather than Ghieste. It is true they are somewhat small duchies, especially Ghieste, however you must realise they are probably one of the most densely settled lands. Also, Ghieste could probably have made up for a very rich commercial center due to its location at mid river, where Endier now is the trade center for the Heartlands. Also, its likely that those two houses were very close together(which would explain why Ghoere is united nowadays anyway).

Orginally posted by Benjamin
Interesting idea. I've never thought of that before, but it makes sense. Avanil was the most powerful vassal to the Emperor, so should have had lots of lands.

BTW, any idea if the Emperors controlled anything more than just the CoA directly? Perhaps the province of Anuire? Or maybe Mieres and the other (lost) colonies?

As I recall, the province of Anuire(now in Avanil) was also controlled by the Emperor, and when not controlled by the Emperor himself, controlled by a Prince. Which is why Avanil now claims the title of Prince, since he controls a former Principality. As for the Emperor, na, I don't think he commanded a very large domain himself.

Orginally posted by Benjamin
This also makes a lot of sense looking at province shapes. I wonder if anyone else can point out some supporting evidence for this idea, though, because I don't recall anything to this regard.

In regards to Brosengae, firstly the province is name Brosien. Its somewhat ackward to name a province after a foreign realm after all :) Also, its clearly states in the RoE that Mierelen wants the province(in addition to Islien and Seasdeep, admittedly) for her own realm, I figure she must use some sort of historical claim for Avanil to allow her to wage war on Taeghas from time to time. Islien and Seasdeep are probably only wanted because of her greed I admit, but I feel Brosien is a natural part of Brosengae: The borders, the terrain, even the name concurs.

Orginally posted by Benjamin
Were Thurazor and Five Peaks around during the time of the founding of Empire? If so, why didn't Roele destroy them? He seemed to dislike goblins quite a bit for siding with Azrai. He marched a massive army northward to conquer Dhoesone, so it's not like he didn't have the opportunity. And he would have marched right through them. Or did they form at a later date? Anyone have an idea?

In either War or Iron Throne or both, Boeruine allies with(i.e: bribes!) the goblins of Thurazor in his attempt to seize the throne. No, both the Five Peaks and Thurazor were never conquered or tamed by the Anuireans, which is why Cariele was so important: It was the only landpass that allowed to move troops to Dhoesone and the Rjurik lands. I could see both Puinol and Torien's Watch having been part of Cariele, and lost to Mhoried and the Peaks due to the empire's decline and the ruler's incompetence.

Orginally posted by Benjamin
I agree with you on this one, although I'm not sure why it is so. Elinie was a Duchy, but could have expanded into Coeranys or Markazor some. Coeranys was simply a border march which would have been easy pickings for Elinie or Osoerde. It's hard to believe that in the past 500 years of interregnum that not a single ruler has expanded his/her realm any.

All in all, probably in part to simplify the designer's existence and part because wars usually result in little permanent territorial gains, and usually there's another war that follows it that inverts the results. This can be especially true in Anuire where everyone looks for the throne, and thus wages war less for territorial gain than gaining more political influence(i.e: vassalage, prestige, allies, destroying enemies).

On another note, I foresee Avanil and Boeruine as the two great houses of Anuire at the time, followed closely by Alamie and Diemed. Those two have had their lines eroded away by time however, while Boeruine and Avanil had theirs strenghtened.

[Benjamin]

Thanks to Juan Fidley, I got a copy of the map from the inner pages of Iron Throne (or one of the other books, not sure, really) that has a map of the Empire, including the Duchies.

From that I am able to figure out that:

Avanil controlled the 3 Tuornen provinces bordering current Avanil.
Alamie encompassed the rest of modern Tuornen.
Ghieste had only Tireste, Ghiere, Tornilen and Rhumannen, the rest of Ghoere was Bhalaene.
Cariele had northern half of Puinol, plus Doom's Peak and Mergarrote.
Diemed controlled Ghoried, Caercas and northwestern half of Fairfield, plus Ilien and Medoere.
Aerenwe held the rest of Roesone.
Endier was part of the Spiderfell Forest (I think everyone knew that, but being certain).
Brosengae did NOT control any provinces of modern Taeghas. Poor Brosengae. ;)
The province of Sideath was part of Tuarhievel (again, probably a DUH statement).
No other current boundaries have changed.

While the map doesn't show it, I think the "official" timeline states that Albiele was once part of Mieres, but fell to anarchy and pirates. But don't quote me on this!

Now I'm happy, and can rest easy. :P