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Thread: Magic Item Creation
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11-22-2008, 07:23 PM #21
My point is that bloodline is way to valuable, and RP cant be effectively collected to compensate for the expense.
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11-22-2008, 10:40 PM #22
How is gaining and spending RP different to gaining and spending RP? For a scion both can be gained, and then internalised to produce internal growth (level or bloodline) - the mechanic is identical.
RP to create seems reasonable - a wizard gathers the mebhaighl of the land (i.e. source based RP) and coalesces it into an inanimate object to create a permanent magic effect / readiness of the item to accept magic; a priest gathers the massed prayers of the faithful to consecrate a relic in much the same manner - compared to the xp concept (burning the wizard's own life-force into the item to imbue it with magic) using RP seems more natural (particularly for an elf).
The idea is to make item creation sufficiently expensive that it is not done casually - beyond simply creating a social boundary that a PC could find an excuse to circumvent. Some cost should therefore be involved, preferably one which will not impact adventure level play and thus disadvantage the creator compared to the other PCs.
The bloodline point I was trying to make is that it is far easier for a scion with a low bloodline to max out collection than a scion of a powerful bloodline - it's probably not too relevant in the 1-30 sort of range where bloodlines and domains seem to match, but those with very high bloodlines swiftly outpace their ability to collect. They could of course find a sucker with a low bloodline as a donor.
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11-23-2008, 05:32 AM #23
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11-23-2008, 05:36 AM #24
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RP is a reflection fo people's or the land's faith in a scion and is not a measure of personal accomplishment (or life force).
Regardless as the whether or not it can be used (as in acquired) to increase a score.
In 3.5 creation of magic items is based on giving up some of one's personal energy (as in xp) and not the energy (or faith) of others.Duane Eggert
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11-23-2008, 06:26 AM #25
Anything that takes away the XP cost for magic items in DnD 3.5 is a radical departure from the core rules. You want to make a magic item, you pay for it, with XP. The only option I find acceptable is having others pay for item creation - i.e. the fighter pays the XP cost for his sword.
But RP substitution...that should be a VERY optional rule.
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11-23-2008, 11:29 AM #26
For most domains RP relate to people's faith, but for sources surely this is not the case? As for the land's support, mebhaighl is the mystical power of the land, so support from it being used to create magic items seems very reasonable. For source's, RP are a direct measure of the personal link to magic for the caster and are therefore a measure of personal accomplishment and energy.
The life-force connection was a reference to xp which are a link to the caster's life-force (not directly stated, but implicit in level drain mechanics and hp gains for some classes from levelling up).
Greenknight. I'd certainly expect that others can contribute xp, gold, etc - making the wizard bear all the cost is unfair unless the item will benefit them alone - otherwise the wizard becomes weaker and another party member becomes stronger which causes unfortunate party dynamics. Social pressures can easily stop priests from churning out items, but for wizards surely they already suffer enough not to have to adventure twice over - once to gain levels and again to make items? Having another use for RPs can only cut down on the use of realm spells anyway and is still a real cost to the creator so I don't see the departure being all that radical.
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11-23-2008, 12:02 PM #27
Actually RP COULD work as an XP substitute IF, and only IF, RPs are a precious commodity along with time (actions). Then it comes down to hard choices - spend those RP on magic items or on ruling your domain? And in any case, will you really waste your domain actions making little trinkets when you could be expanding your sources.
In any game where mages simply hoard RPs and have actions to waste, then allowing RP substitution is a truly horrible idea! Making another outlet for something that seems to come cheap, and outlet that lets you gain power you otherwise would not have...that's not a good idea IMO.
And mages don't have to suffer twice - not a lot anyway, just the item creation feats - if you allow other characters to contribute XP to the forging of magical items.
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11-23-2008, 04:22 PM #28
I would not have expected that source regents would make magical items. That seems, except for very special objects of priceless value, a waste of the great wizard's time. Certainly nearly all item creation will be handled by mid-rank priests when possible, and hired wizards otherwise.
Just like everyone else (fighters, rogues, clerics) there must be younger sons, trained as wizards, but not able to run a wizard domain, because there are a dozen of them. What do they do? Just like the free lance, the young warrior who seeks a place at the court of a great regent, so too does the young wizard seek a place, offering to read the stars, concoct alchemical fluids, advise on magical happenings, report on the doings of the source regent, and make magical items.
The regent doesn't inspect his forts, his men, and train them, he has captains to do this. Mid to high level fighters, who manage the day to day affairs of the army, and make the smaller pieces do what the commander in chief commands. Likewise the magical affairs of any domain, source, guild, temple, law, or landed, is not handled by the regent directly, but through officers of the crown.
When I first started managing people, I learned a great phrase. Managers get work done through other people. Regents are the same way, and magical items are part of this. The Sword Mage is not making magic items for Gavin Tael. While its possible he takes an occasional commission and has his underlings do it, its more likely that Gavin has his own stable of court wizards who do this sort of thing. Former apprentices of the Sword Mage, perhaps, and College of Sorcery graduates who have acquired a useful skill and now want to find a comfortable place (as a noble would define this in terms of wealth, influence, and company) in the world.
Then there are the temples, which must produce the vast bulk of magical items, because they have more spell casters (blood not being a requirement for spellcasting) and they have more money.
Like every other resource (time, gold, regency) most magic is used up during the season accomplishing the normal workings of the domain. So we are not considering the gross domestic magical product, just the magical surplus. So, just like all the other resources (food, money, what have you) even if most of the society is starved of magic (and the world is low magic) most of the magic is owned by domain regents and their domains.
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11-23-2008, 10:37 PM #29
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You use a much too narrow definition of RP that does not account for all the sources of RP. If RP were what you suggest, it should vary primarily with Loyalty. It does not and never have.
Instead, we have RP being gained from mebhaigl, entirely independent of people. We have RP gained from unpopular tyrants. We have RP gained from slaying creatures with bloodlines. We have RP gained from converting 1 point of bloodline to RP.
No, RP is much better and more thoroughly explained by linking it more directly to the divine bloodline--it is just a reflection of divine power. Divine power can be gained in any number of these ways--from worship, from unwilling subservience (exercising control over others), from the inherent power of the land or of mebhaigl, from the bloodline of another.
Further, XP is more a reflection of growth in skill than of personal energy. 3e's construct of XP sacrifices was mostly a game mechanic intended to limit its use; it was always very clumsily explained in story form, IMO.
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11-23-2008, 10:41 PM #30
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Nope - RP from sources reflects the land's faith in the regent just like other holdings' RP generation does with people.
Pg 16 of the Book of Magecraft talks about the "pull" of the sources on regent's. This is much akin to the political power that a landed regent draws or a regent of non-source holdings gets from the "people".
A source regent can lose his "influence" with the land by other wizard regents contensting it (basically they get the land to change its allegiance).Duane Eggert
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