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  1. #11
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    That variant is an error.

    I pointed it out a long time ago.

    All magic item creation rules are supposed to be in Chapter 8 not Chapter 3.

    Travis (Doom) mistakenly placed it in Chap 3 after he told me to put all of the magic item creation rules into Chapter 8. Here is the proper variant (from Chapter 8)

    Variant - Substitutions for experience points in item creation

    Blooded characters can opt to sacrifice their bloodline score in lieu of experience points to cast spells that require the expenditure of experience points or to create magic items. The exchange rate is 750 experience points for every point of bloodline score so sacrificed. This sacrifice can only be used once per item or spell.
    I am opposed to using RP to craft magic items.

    XP is a reflection of personal sacrifice (e.g., one's own life force) RP is merely something that is acquired by essentially doing nothing. If you have holdings you get RP with no personal investment. It is like using the interest on money you have instead of investing the capital.
    Last edited by irdeggman; 11-21-2008 at 12:25 AM.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I think you should gain xp, not lose it when making magic items. Certainly you learn more making your first wand than you do slaying your thousandth goblin.

  3. #13
    I do like requiring players to use regency for any items that actually use regency. But other than that I just try to have players use their best judgement.


    -BB

  4. #14
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    I think you should gain xp, not lose it when making magic items. Certainly you learn more making your first wand than you do slaying your thousandth goblin.
    Yup - but that is an inherent difference with the 3.x rules than with 2nd ed.

    So the BRCS (and any 3.5 based rules) should pattern themselves after the core rules.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #15
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    Yeah, 2e did allow you to gain XP for doing things appropriate to your class. 3e was a regression in magic item theory (in terms of proliferation as just mechanical boosters and in XP cost, though systematizing production better was a good thing), if you ask me. 4e has brought it back in line some, recognizing that wealth is a level-based control all on its own. 4e's economy overall is whacked, though, serving more like a video game economy with everything's cost relative to the character's level, not independently consistent.

    Most of the BR magic items I've created require RP to be spent for each use of their major powers (which often have some realm-level effect, rather than being primarily adventure-focused). I think that's the way to go for powerful items.

    RP as a creation cost for permanent magical items is a story limitation explaining their rarity. Requiring RP to charge and activate these items controls their number, as well, and represents more of a real sacrifice without having to burn XP or bloodline score, both of which are pretty essential.

    My main objection to the idea of sacrificing bloodline points is that it is a vastly larger sacrifice for higher bloodline characters. It should be comparatively easier for such scions with greater divine power to create magic items. A straight bloodline point to XP conversion favors low bloodline scions in a manner that I find inconsistent with the concept of bloodlines as reflections of divine power.

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    RP as a creation cost for permanent magical items is a story limitation explaining their rarity. Requiring RP to charge and activate these items controls their number, as well, and represents more of a real sacrifice without having to burn XP or bloodline score, both of which are pretty essential.

    My main objection to the idea of sacrificing bloodline points is that it is a vastly larger sacrifice for higher bloodline characters. It should be comparatively easier for such scions with greater divine power to create magic items. A straight bloodline point to XP conversion favors low bloodline scions in a manner that I find inconsistent with the concept of bloodlines as reflections of divine power.

    Except that higher bloodline (score) scions have more to give up so it does not actually favor those with lower scores.

    You can always give up xp instead.

    And you can always use this variant (also from Chap 8) to gain/award xp.


    Variant: Experience awards for domain actions
    Regent characters gain experience for overcoming domain-level threats through domain actions. Experience gained for routine actions (base DC 14 or less) should be no more than 50 XP x the regent's level. Difficult actions (base DC 15-19) should provide no more than 75 XP x the regent's level. Very difficult actions (base DC 20+) and actions which are significantly opposed by the opposing regents should provide no more than 100 XP x the regent's level.
    Last edited by irdeggman; 11-21-2008 at 10:14 PM.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    Except that higher bloodline (score) scions have more to give up so it does not actually favor those with lower scores.
    That depends on whether they hold a domain - a low bloodline character using a vassal pyramid will gain enough RP to boost their bloodline frequently - possibly every season (although they'd struggle in other areas if their bloodline was that low) - a high bloodline character otoh gains blood in RP much more slowly. So the low blood PC can burn, bump, burn, bump fairly often, whereas the high blood PC can't.

    If you spend RP, then their is no need to spend XP as a balancer, so you can move to a 'gain xp' for making the item, just as you might award xp for training, leading a great army, making a great speech, etc.

    Shifting to 'major powers cost RP' restricts real magic items to scions - that emphases the importance of scions, but mostly makes magic items a regent only issue. If you add a 'gain RP for doing great things that make the population say wow' and 'elves have phantom RP equal to the source level each season' then the item-using base gets a bit broader.

  8. #18
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    That depends on whether they hold a domain - a low bloodline character using a vassal pyramid will gain enough RP to boost their bloodline frequently - possibly every season (although they'd struggle in other areas if their bloodline was that low) - a high bloodline character otoh gains blood in RP much more slowly. So the low blood PC can burn, bump, burn, bump fairly often, whereas the high blood PC can't.
    Actually if a regent has maxed out his RP gains - then either one will increase his score at the exact same rate.


    Shifting to 'major powers cost RP' restricts real magic items to scions - that emphases the importance of scions, but mostly makes magic items a regent only issue. If you add a 'gain RP for doing great things that make the population say wow' and 'elves have phantom RP equal to the source level each season' then the item-using base gets a bit broader.

    I am still very opposed to using RP to create items (powering them is a different issue and sounds intriging to me).

    The reason being is that in 3.5 magic item creation is tied to the creater giving up some of himself (i.e., xp) in the process.

    RP is something extra that can readily be replaced - by essentially making no personal sacrifice. Merely letting the domain run itself.

    To me this is not a match with the intent of the 3.5 mechanics even though it might prove to me "desirable" doesn't mean that it follows the mechanics concept/intent. Heck it is "desirable" to not have to spend xp at all.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #19
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I cannot imagine spending a point of bloodline on anything. As I see it, spending RP is a constant consumptive activity. It is necessary to hold what you have, but the rate of return on growth is very poor, and scraping together enough to increase one's bloodline is nearly impossible.

  10. #20
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Also RP is not a measure of a scion's personal value but rather the "faith" that others have in him - either people or the land.

    Sort of like lowering your leadership score to create an item.
    Duane Eggert

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