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    Magic Item Creation

    See:http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...ng_magic_items

    Variant: Regency-based magical item creation
    Under this variant, regent artificers can use the power of their realm magic to empower magical items. Through the power of month long rituals, a regent spell caster may use regency points rather than experience points as the vital energy required to creating a magical item. Regency point are spent in this manner are equivalent to 10 XP each. The use of these rituals, however, adds 32 days (one Cerilian month) to each item's creation time.
    What was the reasoning behind this variant? It sounds arbitrary and like it errs way too much on the conservative side.

    The DMG, as well as other 3.x sources, provides a discussion and variants requiring less if any XP to create magical items. They saw early on that this requirement might be a problem. Gradually WotC recognized that it was not helping the game and penalized spellcaster XP advancement, particularly after a character has already spent a bunch of precious feat slots on Item Creation Feats and is crafting items not just for himself, but for the rest of the party. Thus some of the reasons they eliminated XP costs in 4e. The variants include allowing other people to provide the XP (that's just fair), and allowing special materials to be purchased that would substitute for XP. These special materials I think were supposed to cost 5-10gp per XP point, IIRC. At the most, the XP substitute would cost the rest of the market price, so that by spending the full market price in gp one could create a magic item with no XP cost.

    Now let's consider RP. This is a precious commodity in BR because it can/must be used for so many important things. It often becomes a limiting resource for the expansion of a domain, because it is limited by bloodline (whereas GB income is not). For wizards it is even more limiting, since in Anuire at least (I am not as familiar with the other regions), wizard domains are tiny in comparison to the others, generating usually less RP than the wizard's bloodline and often with little opportunity for expansion (and likely reduction through province growth, instead). Further, BRCS 3.x realm spells are extremely expensive in RP cost, so for a wizard to do what they are supposed to be able to do is extremely costly in terms of RP AND GB (which they have even less of).

    I propose a more balanced and rational variant. Consider that RP and GB are interchangeable when adding them in to an action to affect its success chance. So 1RP = 1GB, or 1RP = 2000gp.

    By that equation, consider the already-suggested DMG variant and set the magical item "cost" of each XP equal to 10gp. So 1RP becomes equal to 200XP.

    Alternately, a different equation might make the math easier at the domain level. For every 1GB in cost to create a magic item, 1 RP can be spent to cover the XP cost. Quick and easy. This method places even less value on an RP than the above suggestion. It works out as follows:

    A 4000gp (market price) magical item will cost 2000gp (base cost) and 160XP. That's 1GB in base cost. If it also costs 1RP to make, that 1RP is the equivalent of 160XP. If you use the original variant, it would take 16RP just to make a cheap and easy 4000gp item. I'm sorry, but that's just not worth it by any stretch of the imagination.

    I would also revise the time requirement. 3.x BRCS already makes it ridiculously time consuming to research realm spells, requiring 1 whole month for each level of the spell and thus robbing wizard regents of precious actions. In order to research normal spells and create normal magic items, they're already spending a lot of character actions. Now they're penalized even more by having to spend tons of actions adding a few realm spells to their repertoire, spells that Clerics get for free. How ridiculously one-sided is that?

    So let's not make matters worse by effectively requiring at least 2 months/character actions by requiring wizards to add a month to every magic item created, even a simple scroll. At most, double the item creation time, so that it's 1 day for every 2,000gp in base price, not every 1,000gp.

    Here's what I think is a conservative write up of the magic item creation variant:

    Variant: Regency-based magical item creation
    Under this variant, regent spellcasters can use the power of their realm magic to empower magical items. Power channeled through a regent's divine bloodline can permanently infuse items with magic; a regent spell caster may use regency points rather than experience points as the vital energy required to creating a magical item. One Regency Point can be spent for each GB in base cost to empower an item. Regency Points spent in this manner are therefore equivalent to 160 XP each. Channeling this energy requires additional rituals, doubling the item creation time.

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    As wizards are highly vulnerable adventuring, and desperately need to gain levels so removing the xp cost makes a lot of sense - but something has to counter or you get proliferation.

    Having RP as a cost, at least for powerful items, makes sense - only regents can make permanent items thus magic items immediately become less common. As GB is far harder to come by than RP for a wizard spellcaster (who tends to swap at around 5:1 including the cost of the alchemy spell itself) I'd suggest the reverse of your approach - move from a GB cost to a pure RP cost.

    As for benefiting the party I can see the point, and would let other people 'pay the price' happily, but much BR is often played as a PBEM or with a significant amount of domain level play - so the PCs are as likely to be rivals/foes as friends. Similarly the landed regent has armies to do his fighting, so a magic weapon and even the idea of adventuring at all, is fairly remote to them - they come out to adventure when required, or when unable to otherwise achieve their objective. The mage by contrast needs those levels so probably spends half their time adventuring - so most magic items will benefit a mage, or have been made to maintain/earn an alliance since they are less valuable to a non-mage PC regent.

    I'd increase the conversion ration, though maybe only to 1 RP : 50 (+1: 1 RP, +2: 3 RP, +3: 13 RP, sounds ok) and remove the extra time (the mage is already spending a month on the item) burden. But otherwise the RP before XP theory sounds good to me - as does the RP before GB approach, unless running a Monty haul style campaign that +4 sword at 16 GB is going to provoke riots over the tax burden even in Avanil.

    Realm spells should be rare, but remember that a mage can use court actions (them thar research students) to push them on - even a high level spell takes at most 2 domain turns including court actions which is not long, as long as the mage court is based on highest source level not Gb cost (a fairly common house rule as far as I can see) the mage probably has 4-6 court actions a season.

    One final thing is to permit accumulating potions, scrolls etc into a single create action and let the mage churn out a bunch of them as a single action.
    Last edited by AndrewTall; 11-19-2008 at 06:13 PM.

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    I'd increase the conversion ration, though maybe only to 1 RP : 50 (+1: 1 RP, +2: 3 RP, +3: 13 RP, sounds ok)
    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I like the suggestion of using solely RP to create a magic item, though, because of the reasons you have stated, and considering that mundane items (the base material for magic items) normally aren't even considered at the domain level. I think the easiest way to do that is to establish an RP to Magic Item Market Price conversion.

    With that original 4,000gp item taking 1GB base cost normally, I'd say 2RP can cover the whole creation of the item, thus 1RP per 2000gp in market price. If you want to be stricter, 1RP per 1,000gp in market price should do. Gold could offset the price by 50%, if, for instance, a landed regent is contributing. Of course, in that instance, the wizard or cleric is probably going to request additional compensation from the ruler above and beyond the costs for the magic item's creation...

    This way, the small magic items (scrolls, potions) can be made in 1-2,000gp batches.

    I agree that RP is easier to come by for wizards than GB, but not for priests (who can also create magic items). And in Anuire at least, not even RP is easy to come by for wizards. There are very few wizard domains with domain powers much over 20, and not much room for expansion, if any (and all likelihood of reduction). That's why I think magic items shouldn't burn up all that RP, but be more reasonable in cost.

    As for research actions, the Source Court (equal to highest source value) is a common house rule, but is not in BRCS. Further, BRCS explains that all spells, including realm spells, must be learned personally by a wizard, and usually he doesn't even get help from other wizards because of a cultural preference against that. So Source Court actions, without another house rule, can't research spells for wizard regents. I agree with you that all that should be changed, but that's not the way it is in BRCS. Unmodified BRCS rules for wizard regents make them suck hard when compared to any other regent type.

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I like the suggestion of using solely RP to create a magic item, though, because of the reasons you have stated, and considering that mundane items (the base material for magic items) normally aren't even considered at the domain level. I think the easiest way to do that is to establish an RP to Magic Item Market Price conversion.
    Ok, you're going straight from GB + XP to straight RP. I was going GB + XP to GB + RP, since for a wizard GB converts to RP it makes sense to 'cut out the middleman'.

    In terms of mundane, I'd agree entirely for anything other than gems, particularly fine craftsmanship (getting that dwarven smith or elven gem shaper to prepare your masterpiece for enchantment should be an adventure itself!) Certain dwarven/elven alloys, hides from shadow beasts, etc are a step beyond 'mundane' but aside from them unless you want some oddity (a wizard cannot bargain over ores or weapons purchased for enchantment, etC) for colour I'd agree with ignoring the base item.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    With that original 4,000gp item taking 1GB base cost normally, I'd say 2RP can cover the whole creation of the item, thus 1RP per 2000gp in market price. If you want to be stricter, 1RP per 1,000gp in market price should do. Gold could offset the price by 50%, if, for instance, a landed regent is contributing. Of course, in that instance, the wizard or cleric is probably going to request additional compensation from the ruler above and beyond the costs for the magic item's creation...
    Hmm, +2 items would be fairly rare in my view - I'd say (level-4)/4 for magic bonus might be more normal with +1 for powerful domains or noble families of history. That would suggest 1 Gb to 4 RP minimum, maybe 1:8. Paying half in GB with help from a patron sounds good - although I'd expect any mage making and selling a magic item to want more than mere money in return - or at least a very handsome profit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    I agree that RP is easier to come by for wizards than GB, but not for priests (who can also create magic items). And in Anuire at least, not even RP is easy to come by for wizards. There are very few wizard domains with domain powers much over 20, and not much room for expansion, if any (and all likelihood of reduction). That's why I think magic items shouldn't burn up all that RP, but be more reasonable in cost.

    Well, most bloodlines for PC's don't go far over 20, so after that the domain is irrelevant so I'm not sure about any issue for Anuireans - I'd say Vos and Rjurik wizards suffer the most. If the mage makes 1 permanent magic item a year (probably faster than I'd be happy with) they have 80 RP to spend in the year - even 10 RP is cheap in that regard for an item which gives a permanent advantage of some sort.

    I left priests out, but you are of course right - they have GB and RP to burn so don't really have anything to stop them churning out holy relics barring social conventions (miracles don't grow on trees, except perhaps for druids).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    As for research actions, the Source Court (equal to highest source value) is a common house rule, but is not in BRCS. Further, BRCS explains that all spells, including realm spells, must be learned personally by a wizard, and usually he doesn't even get help from other wizards because of a cultural preference against that. So Source Court actions, without another house rule, can't research spells for wizard regents. I agree with you that all that should be changed, but that's not the way it is in BRCS. Unmodified BRCS rules for wizard regents make them suck hard when compared to any other regent type.
    Yeah, having played wizards a few times now the downers are very apparent - fortunately the wiki is a great place for the expansions that would otherwise wait for the Regent's guide to Cerilia - like these house rules. (Hint hint)

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    Who's working on the Regent's Guide? ETA? This is the first I've heard of it.

    You must promote a very low magic game if +2 is rare. The basic assumption in BRCS is that magic items are rare in number, but tend to be more powerful. Under that assumption, +2 items are weak and it would be unlikely that regents would waste their time on them. I prefer the few but powerful magic item approach, because it makes magic items mean more and have a chance to be famous in and of themselves, rather than just be superior equipment. +1 items really don't do much mechanically, and are barely better than MW for weapons. It really hardly matters if they're magical or not. I consider them fairly worthless, and just normally a bridge for low level characters. I'd rather have my low level characters survive on various upgrades of mundane items until mid-level, and then start discovering a few powerful magical items to gradually accumulate among the party.

    So IMO, when we think of magic items, we should be thinking of scrolls and potions as being the most common. Those that are not scrolls and potions will tend to be powerful and few, mostly with market values of 20,000 or more if they are permanent items. Expendable Wondrous items, wands (which I'd only give 10-20 charges) and such might fill that middle ground.

    So to create those 20,000gp items, the entry cost for my original suggestion would be 5GB and 5RP, more expensive than most military units and several domain actions (only ruling provinces over 5th level is more expensive in domain action terms). The costs go up steeply from there.

    If you allow a straight RP conversion into magical items, at the stricter 1 per 1000gp of market price, you're talking 20RP and no GB for those items. Perhaps this would fit your style better, AT? I personally don't think on your time frames, either, since I don't have time for a weekly tabletop game. On games that progress more slowly, and in the notoriously brief PBEMs, you need to allow for much faster game play and much faster exercise of game options.

    My first proposal was GB + RP directly, btw. 1GB and 1RP per 4,000gp market price (2,000gp base price). And just to be contrary, I'll point out that most PC playable realms that are actually played are usually more around the 30 point range, not 20. Even by the BRCS blood ability score, that's only equivalent to a 15 point stat. You're playing a low-powered game indeed if you characters are asking for just 10 point blood stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Who's working on the Regent's Guide? ETA? This is the first I've heard of it.
    I thought it was the planned sequel to the Atlas and BRCS (which was supposed to be the base I understand to avoid option-itis) - on indefinite hold and probably superseded by the wiki now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    You must promote a very low magic game if +2 is rare.
    Well, most regents are in the 5-8 bracket so get +1 for level and +1-2 for fame and wealth so +2 or +3 would be the norm for the regents and other 'key' people - outside of such folk (and lunatics like adventurers) yes, I'd expect magic to be rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    The basic assumption in BRCS is that magic items are rare in number, but tend to be more powerful. Under that assumption, +2 items are weak and it would be unlikely that regents would waste their time on them. I prefer the few but powerful magic item approach, because it makes magic items mean more and have a chance to be famous in and of themselves, rather than just be superior equipment. +1 items really don't do much mechanically, and are barely better than MW for weapons. It really hardly matters if they're magical or not. I consider them fairly worthless, and just normally a bridge for low level characters. I'd rather have my low level characters survive on various upgrades of mundane items until mid-level, and then start discovering a few powerful magical items to gradually accumulate among the party.
    It depends on whether you use Shadow World monsters or undead with damage resistance to non magical weapons aside from cold iron/steel I guess - that makes even a +1 weapon worth its weight in gold. That said you have a good point - if the wizard is going to make something, they should make something worth doing - quite possibly only +1 but with other benefits that push it up to +2-3 minimum. I guess I am fiarly harsh - someone like Prince Avan may have a magical weapon ANd a magical suit of armour, with possibly 2-3 other items but most people would have far less - its how I try to reduce the exponential power curve and keep high level people touchable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    So IMO, when we think of magic items, we should be thinking of scrolls and potions as being the most common. Those that are not scrolls and potions will tend to be powerful and few, mostly with market values of 20,000 or more if they are permanent items. Expendable Wondrous items, wands (which I'd only give 10-20 charges) and such might fill that middle ground.
    I go for potions/similar one shot variants too (magic fruits, gems, etc). I prefer the ebarron approach to wands - 1/2 uses a day, rather than expandable items per se - it depends on how you play the foe really on the impact the change has. I see priests using scrolls a lot (most of my priests would be non-spellcasters allowed to use a low level spell scroll for McGuffin purposes) but potions get a little uncontrollable for them - mages sell and forget, the churches want to tie people to them with their miracles...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    So to create those 20,000gp items, the entry cost for my original suggestion would be 5GB and 5RP, more expensive than most military units and several domain actions (only ruling provinces over 5th level is more expensive in domain action terms). The costs go up steeply from there.

    If you allow a straight RP conversion into magical items, at the stricter 1 per 1000gp of market price, you're talking 20RP and no GB for those items. Perhaps this would fit your style better, AT? I personally don't think on your time frames, either, since I don't have time for a weekly tabletop game. On games that progress more slowly, and in the notoriously brief PBEMs, you need to allow for much faster game play and much faster exercise of game options.
    From recollection I'd thought 10k items fairly handy - covering most +2 to stat items, etc. That's only 10 RP, about half a turn's income, even 20 RP is just 1 turns income so similar to gaining 1 holding level in effort. I'd prefer to offer adventures if someone really wants and can justify getting a better item to reduce the cost rather than cut the cost generally - otherwise low level items get churned out. (dear sire, a dozen magic blades for your champions!) 100k items get pretty legendary, and at 50 RP income could be made annually by mages - but the existence of one such item per realm would be surprising to me.

    I don't tabletop sadly, and recognise the d4-1 curse in PBEMs, but if you want to pump out the item, 3 regent actions and 4-5 court actions will get most spells learned in one turn - particularly for mages who can only afford to pay for 1 or 2 actions that actually cost money. To me regardless of the length of the game you should build the world to last decades and centuries - if most mages will crank out 20-30 magic items, then over 1,500 years you get a lot of items kicking around unless you bring in some fairly serious amortisation of the mebhaighl. That said I am an admitted simulationist and would expect mages desperate for a new spell to exchange it with another mage or adventure for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    My first proposal was GB + RP directly, btw. 1GB and 1RP per 4,000gp market price (2,000gp base price). And just to be contrary, I'll point out that most PC playable realms that are actually played are usually more around the 30 point range, not 20. Even by the BRCS blood ability score, that's only equivalent to a 15 point stat. You're playing a low-powered game indeed if you characters are asking for just 10 point blood stats.
    20-30 is the range I had in mind - take into account vassalage (what your mages don't prostitute themselves to the highest bidder?) and a minimal reserve and 20 spendable RP isn't bad as income.

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    Remember that items still require caster level minimums to create; those minimums in and of themselves control what is created and what is not pretty well. Thus those 100k items aren't going to come in until you have high level characters, anyway. If you want simulationism (I'm sympathetic to this view, though I make allowances for game play fun as my golden goal), all you need do here is say that most characters, even regents, stick in that 5-8 level, and thus most magic items are above their CL. Even the high level ones (like elves) most likely don't have access to the GB or RP resources to make them, unless they're regents. Those 100k items would also be somewhat limited in that you could only use what RP you have accumulated to make them, and this is limited somewhat by blood ability score (it maxes out).

    Just thought of this. Perhaps a good hybrid that avoids mass proliferation of items, encourages a focus on a few powerful items that keep pace with your level, and just overall works well for a rare and low magic approach as well as a rare but high magic approach, how about requiring "permanent" magic items to have an RP maintenance cost?

    Under this, I would retain one of the creation cost systems I established (I would say 1RP per 1000gp market price, with the flexibility that up to half of that cost could be covered by an equal 1:1 swap for GB). Then I'd just say that every permanent (as opposed to expendable) magic item needs to be powered by 1RP per season. Letting a season lapse does not destroy the item, but it is not available for use until powered by channeling an RP into it.

    A scion could make a magic item truly permanent and not require any RP to power it by sacrificing 1 point of bloodline to it. Very few would do this and would only tend to do it on some worthy item. More commonly, if a scion dies while wielding the item during a battle heroic enough to qualify for a regency gain, the primary items used will become permanently enchanted with no RP maintenance. This explains nicely how most heirloom items stay in the family and why they're so precious! It also explains why other items tend to be found in hoards (after their owners died). It may also lead to interesting story lines, as evil spellcasters sacrifice scions to use their blood to permanently empower their items.

    In 4e the power level of items is more strictly regulated, and a higher maintenance cost could be charged for items as they go up in tier. Perhaps items of equal or higher level than their wielders still need to be fed RP even if they're permanent. This might keep even the Gorgon and the Magian from crafting a vast array of items.

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    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Regent's Guide? Is that some unknown project, or are we talking about the RoE PbeM Regent Guide here (by yours truly)?
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Remember that items still require caster level minimums to create; those minimums in and of themselves control what is created and what is not pretty well.
    Fair to a degree, but that counters my approach to try and use domain power somehow - not sure how it work in practice mind. I think at one point we were looking at sources acting as virtual levels to give a serious defender bonus...

    We seem mostly to be arguing the exact conversion ration which will be specific to each campaign - different strokes and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Thus those 100k items aren't going to come in until you have high level characters, anyway. If you want simulationism (I'm sympathetic to this view, though I make allowances for game play fun as my golden goal), all you need do here is say that most characters, even regents, stick in that 5-8 level, and thus most magic items are above their CL. Even the high level ones (like elves) most likely don't have access to the GB or RP resources to make them, unless they're regents. Those 100k items would also be somewhat limited in that you could only use what RP you have accumulated to make them, and this is limited somewhat by blood ability score (it maxes out).
    There are spells to bank RP, and co-operative magic could be an issue - these hit more for elves and priests than normal wizards though (possibly excepting the Khinasi). 100k items can come about by supercharging items with many minor powers - for example an ioun fist from the computer game which adds +2 to each stat clocks in at 48,000 gp = 24 GB, crank it up to +4 each and it hits 192,000 gp = 98 GB. Now individually the spells required are pretty minor - L6 (8 for +4) caster should be able to cast all of them but the effects stack nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Just thought of this....
    Hmm, spend RP to sustain a powerful item, otherwise it sleeps (or at least the wizzy functions go to sleep) - I like it. Similar to bloodmagic in earthdawn to a degree. Spending BP orRP is a non-issue incidentally - they convert if generally in the wrong direction. Spend a BP to make it permanent is the same as spending RP equal to the bloodline, slight issue is that the cost is divorced from the power. 1 BP is worth more to someone with BP 40 than someone with BP 4 as is so much harder to restore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    This might keep even the Gorgon and the Magian from crafting a vast array of items.
    what stops them is theft - the only way someone can challenge them is to steal their stuff and use it against them. Both would make a few potent items that they kept close and which served mainly to shore up weaknesses rather than provide a potent offensive capability - both are already stronger than their foes so they don't need extra attack capability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Knight View Post
    Regent's Guide? Is that some unknown project, or are we talking about the RoE PbeM Regent Guide here (by yours truly)?
    Sorry, I'm leading people astray. I had the vague idea that the original plan was for BRCS to be the 'basic set', with optional rules and the like in an expansion (to prevent the brcs bloating). I thought the expansion was the regent's guide or some such name. Clearly I was wrong.

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