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  1. #41
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keytium View Post
    [T]he idea of someone having to steal or be given divinity does sort of rule out and la[w]full gods e[m]erging, because a lawful char[ac]ter would never go out of his way to steal the godhood of another even a dead one.
    Why can't such a thing be a gift or reward? It would seem that lawful forces would prefer the model of recruitment and mentoring in the divine realm, instead of the entrepreneurial approach of self-made divines from the chaotic side.

  2. #42
    i agree completly that it could be given or earned but imagine for a moment that in a crystal sphere somewhere their is a huge unheaval due to the failure of their very left wing leadership because of this people views change dramticaly and now a significant group of people believe that a hierarchy is a nessary part of society because equality leads to entropithy and chaos. now in this sphere thier is no god whoes portfolio covers hierarchys. they would be unlikely to worship gods unaligned to their view points so they have too options 1) create a sub sect of a existing religion or 2) worship a new god. now this emergant deity would be lawful because hierarchys are an inherently lawful thing. but none of the current gods would be willing to give up such are large portion of the population to this new religion and theirfore would be unwilling to raise anyone from mortaility to godhood. so in this instance how would a new lawful deity emerge? The followers of this new religion aren't going to try and create a god. They are going to worship a charismatic figure who will gain godhood from the power of their belief. If however this leader requires a spark then how are they to obtain godhood?

    That is only one example of when dieities logicaly should emerge dispite their being no divine spark. most instances of godly birth I would imagine would be caused by a lack of appropriate gods or from old gods falling from favour and new ones being thought up.
    Last edited by Keytium; 03-11-2009 at 03:05 AM.

  3. #43
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keytium View Post
    but none of the current gods would be willing to give up such are large portion of the population to this new religion and theirfore would be unwilling to raise anyone from mortaility to godhood. so in this instance how would a new lawful deity emerge?
    Why impose this condition? After all, lawful organization gods will look at such a sphere and say, either I need to step up and manage this sphere's emergent hierarchy myself, or I need to delegate it to someone who will. I cannot imagine why such deities would act as you suggest. It is directly opposed to their alignment.

    I can see rival powers setting up their own delegates and these new gods being rivals, but I can't see them refusing to either step up or delegate and give the sphere over to more chaos by their own chaotic actions.

    Also, punctuation, capitalization, and spelling make your posts easier to read.

  4. #44
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I'd say that if you want a lawful faith to have a lawful god then the answer is outsourcing- the chaotic god creates a 'vassal' lawful god to soak up the demand.

    However as 'top of the tree' there is nothing to stop a chaotic god ruling a lawful church - they
    Faith has lots of rules and hierarchy, the god just makes the rules they like.

    Terry Pratchet uses the concept of small gods to reflect 'man made' gods with few worshipers, these grow as they gain followers and eventually gain real power.

    I prefer a spark to prevent millions of small gods - one for each schism.

    A spark could come from genetics, divine inspiration, or 'elder spirits' of some sort - think fistandantilus/raistlin.

  5. #45
    I'm sorry, but I think you missed the point of the example kgauck, probably due to my lack of punctuation and spelling . their is no lawful gods of any similarity to what is required. They either died out over the years of chaotic rule due to lack of worship or the ruling gods could have killed them or whatever the reason is for their absence their is a hole in the pantheon.

    what I was basically trying to say was how does the lawful side of the pantheon adress gaps in their portfolio? Just because they are lawful doesn't mean they are hugly altruistic. most gods won't give any significant amount of their power away, because why should they? the demands of a population change dramatically over time and because of this gods die and fade away. Also new cults will form and challenge the older gods

    when you are faced with the fact that the gods will eventually die then you need a way to replace them. you can't have the gods as the only source of godhood because otherwise new gods just wouldn't emerge.

    also can you think of the number of gods in the forgotten realms setting that cover pretty much the same things. just because a god exists who loosely fits in with your values doesn't mean you are going to worship them over worshipping a newer god. the gods would never invest these new religions with power for two reasons. one because they aren't necessary to fulfil any lacks in the pantheon and two because they would be a direct threat to them. and yet their are plenty of examples of gods that are in open competition. how are these competitors to emerge unless by the power of belief.

    AndrewTall raises a valid point about the small gods syndrome, (which is an awesome book “thou shall build shallower steps!” ) but the difference between my model and that of Sir terry Pratchett is the amount of belief required to create a god. In small gods any amount of belief causes a god to spontaneously exist. In the version I suggest it would take several thousand to elevate someone to demigodhood and over a hundred thousand to elevate or spontaneously create a fully fledged god. Also I would think that as long as people still think they worship the same god then they should supply power to the same entity. These two things combined would stop millions of small gods from being created but still allow the emergence of minor gods.

    'elder spirits' of some sort - think fistandantilus/raistlin.
    As far as I knew Raistlin gained his godhood though killing Takhisis as opposed to gaining it from Fistandantilus. yes Fistandantilus was vital in his becoming a god but the power he gained form him was nothing compared to the power he have after he defeated Takhisis. Never mind it doesn't really mater.

    So I'm sorry but I'm going to have disagree with both of you I think the “divine spark” idea is just too limiting.

  6. #46
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    No, I did follow the point of the example, despite the capitalization and punctuation.

    But consider
    1) If people are traveling between planes, nothing stops gods from doing so. Why can't Haelyn, for example, pop over to your hypothetical sphere, pick out a promising paragon of things chivalric and bestow on him the necessary minimal divine level?

    Just because they are lawful doesn't mean they are hugly altruistic. most gods won't give any significant amount of their power away.
    2) Yeah why would any regent ever have a vassal? Answer: because they can't administer all their fiefs by themselves. Same question repeated: Why would a god give away the minimal divine level to elevate someone from worthy paragon to divine status? Answer, because the god understands that creating a friend in this new place means a new friend, who may regard you as a worthy patron for eternity, and advances your ethos. There is no more altruism here than when when any powerful figure delegates any authority. Delegation makes them more powerful, not less.

    3) Gods don't die, they simply lose their portfolio. Azrai didn't die at Diesmaar. Saturn didn't die when Jupiter cut him in half with a scyth. Instead he lurked around at the edge of the cosmos. So I don't accept the "gods must die" premise.

    4) The situation in the FR has nothing to do with the example you started with. FR has multiple overlapping gods, your original example had no god to turn to.

    Hence there is no reason not to argue that a gift or reward is not possible. If you want to argue that not everyone would offer such a gift or reward, I have no argument, all I need for my case is that someone, somewhere, will.

  7. #47
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Hmm, anyone powerful enough to kill three pantheons - every god in a sphere - is by definition a god themselves surely?

    But whatever works for you, personally I figure that if the gods are willing to allow and encourage new gods to form then divine spark isn't limiting, if they aren't willing then any small god will be exterminated as soon as they become noticeable.

    A lot depends on how you want the PCs (who are the potentials I presume) to advance - do they need a patron? To slay an elder demon/ recover the soul of a slain god? If so then sparkage is fine, if they need to build a vast domain and rule up their bloodline then sparkage is counter-productive and distracting.

    Hmm, didn't Osiris get more powerful after he was killed? Gods are weird...

  8. #48
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    At 04:23 AM 3/12/2009, kgauck wrote:

    > Yeah why would any regent every have a vassal? Answer: because they can`t administer all their fiefs by themselves. Same question repeated: Why would a god give away the minimal divine level to elevate someone from worthy paragon to divine status? Answer, because the god understands that creating a friend in this new places means a new friend, who may regard you as a worthy patron for eternity, and advances your ethos. There is no more altruism here than when when any powerful figure delegates any authority. Delegation makes them more powerful, not less.


    This is really the heart of the matter when it comes to running a BR-like system in PS, and I think the problem is one of the perennial issues that occurs in the BR community all the time--a definition of terms. In this case, the gods would certainly have vassals and a system of organization. But the question is: Does that hierarchy represent something equivalent to the system of vassalage in BR, or do the gods have what we might want to describe as an unlimited ability to collect regency? If the gods` capacity to collect regency is infinite then there would be no need for them to endow subordinates with a fraction of the godly power of a kind that resembles BR`s bloodline system. This is the difference between what we have in the past referred to as a lower case vassal and an upper case Vassal. Of course the gods have vassals... but do they have Vassals who gather up the divine energies of worship by proxy and then pass that along to their god?

    From what I can tell the gods` ability to collect regency is unlimited in PS and in BR, so they have no need of Vassals. The logic for that conclusion is simply that in BR we have Deismaar as the rationale for divine power amongst mortals. There are characters who are divinely gifted or who simply have powers and abilities before Deismaar (the Lost, elven immortality) but these things don`t amount to the ability to collect regency. If the gods` ability to collect regency was limited before Deismaar, surely they would have figured out the Vassalage system at some point in the previous millennia and subsequent 1,500 years, wouldn`t they?

    Of course, one could come up with some sort of rationalization for the inclusion of BR-like bloodlines in PS, but one has to assume that the ability of the gods to collect their equivalent of regency is capped just as bloodline score is, and that cap must be low enough that the gods would see a need for a system of assalage.

    Gary
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 03-13-2009 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Vertical length.

  9. #49
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Looking at the BR gods, if they needed a Vassal god, then all they needed to do was mate. The BR gods were not all originally human. Laerme was the child of gods (Erik & Avani) and I have no idea how she got bestowed a portfolio. Was it the decision of her parents? Her worshippers? Herself? She certainly is "allied" to her parents, even if she can occasionally be a rebellious teenager. Likewise Cuiraécen was the child of Haelyn and Nesirie.

    So I certainly don't think the Old Gods or the New Gods have any regency link to Aebrynis themselves. So the BR concept of Vassalge doesn't apply to them.

    Sorontar.

  10. #50
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    After all, lawful organization gods will look at such a sphere and say, either I need to step up and manage this sphere's emergent hierarchy myself, or I need to delegate it to someone who will.
    If you don't think a vassal is necessary my argument defaults to the first part, a god can simply step up to fill the gap in the sphere.

    I don't presume one is necessary, but the basic premise of the question is about forming new gods, so I address that issue. But I'm happy with the idea that existing gods are sufficient and no new apotheosis is necessary in the first place.

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