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  1. #31
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    At 11:26 PM 2/28/2009, Keytium wrote:

    >i was planing on having different types of source, on the outer
    >planes sources would be granted by gods or be powered by the planes
    >nature (you could drain pure chaos from limbo ectra) the problem
    >with being granted by the gods is where to draw the line between
    >this and a church holding?

    Personally, my take on this kind of thing is that the gods themselves
    take the power of worship, leadership, divinity, etc. that is all
    wrapped up into the concept we call "regency" in BR and gather it up
    directly. There are no regents in the outer planes because there is
    no need of them, and why would the gods create such beings when they
    could just take that power from its source without the need of a
    "middle man." In this context, it`s worth noting that even the
    presence of intermediaries in BR is rather carefully described as an
    accident or byproduct of the setting`s background. None of the gods
    intended to create scions; it just happened as a result of their
    struggle with Azrai at Deismaar.

    So, the question "where should I (as DM) draw the line?" is probably
    best answered first by asking "why would to gods draw such a line in
    the first place?" In BR, the "why?" is explained by the struggle
    between the gods. In Planescape or SJ one needs an explanation for
    the "why?" first, and once one gets that then "where?" should fall
    into place more easily. One could also start to see "who might gain
    such powers?" and "what are those powers?"

    One could, for instance, interpret a particular mythology as having a
    group of divine intermediaries (like, say, angels) who interact with
    divinely favored mortals (saints) who are granted particular powers
    based upon their self-sacrifice or abject faith. Such saints might
    become the focus of worship themselves as intermediaries between
    mortals and the divine, and that worship might take the form of some
    sort of regency-like system. Maybe they can use the energy to cast
    the equivalent of realm spells that look like miracles to the
    faithful. I wouldn`t suggest that one in particular, but it works as
    an example. Something more apt to the setting in particular would be better.

    In PS, for example, there are the existing organizations in the form
    of the factions, and their various incarnations. That seems like the
    best starting point for some sort of political level of play for that
    setting. The wards of Sigil seem like the most likely size of "provinces."

    >to be honest i wouldn`t be able to write a whole new lists of realm
    >spells so what would you reconmend?

    I`d suggest you use the BR realm spells as a starter, and come up
    with realm spells that do similar things but in a much more general
    and simple way. That is, instead of a Bless Army spell that adds to
    the stats of a particular set of units it should just grant a bonus
    to everyone of that faction. Curse the same way. Since the amount
    of effort is an issue, they should be expressed as simply as
    possible. Cost, requirements and brief description of effects. Example:

    BLESS FACTION
    Cost: 5 pts. (or what you think is appropriate.)
    Requirement: Small faction (a level maybe if that`s how you`re doing it.)
    Benefit: All members of the faction gain a +1 to their attack rolls
    during their next conflict.

    DEFEND FACTION
    Cost: 10 pts. (ditto.)
    Requirement: Medium faction
    Benefit: Your faction headquarters becomes barricaded giving all
    factions members a +1 to defend/AC from that position.

    Etc.

    The cost, requirements and effects of those "realm spells" will, of
    course, depend on the features of the "faction level" that you decide
    upon, but in general the BR realm spells would serve as a good outline.

    Hope that helps.

    Gary

  2. #32
    whilst i agree that the gods would have the final say in the outer planes i disagree that regets have to act as their intermediaries. their are planty of examples of places not under the sway of the gods in the outer planes.

    the way i see it, any of the godly realms near the PC's realms would be reprsented as factions in their own right they would without a doubt be incredibly powerful but unless provoked they be mostly passsive most of the interaction would be between their vassels, the major PS factions and any inderpentant factions. so if it worked in this way then only half maybe less of the realms in the outer planes would be alinged to any one god.

    this leads me away from the why would the gods do this? and back to the question of how does the power work? the problem lies in the variance in the outerplanes the godly portion can be done with little diffculty but everything that anyone belives makes it's way into the outerplanes in some way so although not many people think that hamburgers have the magical propity to rip uot peoples speen somewhere someone does and because of that somewhere in the outerplanes their is a hamburger just waitiing to rip your spleen out.

    back onto subject the gods/angles/saints/worshipers idea is a good way of representing a gods power on the outer plane because a god would often have influence far away from their realm such a tiered system would lend it's self perfectly to the vassel system that works so well in birthright.

    the factions are problematic because due to their opposing ideologies they are orginised very differntly and in some cases direct vasselship to a central power would be inaproprate such as the xaositects, the revolutionary league or the free league. in other cases a direct vassel system is VERY approprate such as the harmonium.

    thats if i'm going with the prefaction war factions. if you go with the post faction war factions then everything is even more unorgonised and some factions are non-existant.

    one way of expresing factions is to remove the diplomatic modifications for alignment and replace that with a modifcation for the relationship between the factions. this however isn't a very large factor in gameplay and in PS the factions are a big deal that have far more sway over the political landscape then that. so how should i represent them?

    the spells are a good idea if it was taking place on small scale but their no such thing as a small faction in PS. the planes are huge. i think that the factions have to be mearly political factions with no holdings or land but instead have sway over their followers that rule/controll the factions assets. their would be a few exceptions for their headquarters ectra.

    thinking about i guess that the spells don't need the amount of revision i had feared i supose that if you make somewhere more profitable then you make it more profitable it dosen't matter if you used fire or the power of Hades (i'm talking about the plane not the god) as long they do the same thing it should be fine. you were right AndrewTall.

    the have to be on a plane to collect RP could be very iritating to realms that span multiple planes a varation of the idea might be only RP generated on a plane could be used on that plane. setting up seperation RP accounts as it were none of which could surpass your maximum RP what would you think of that?

    as to how much regency you should be able to control i think i would be using the variant rule presented in chapter 8 of the 3.5ed Birthright book to have twice the chariter level as the maximum regency rather then the bloodline score because if not it will give those from cerila an unfair advantage.

  3. #33
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Hmm, if the gods are famous for anything, it is for disagreeing about everything.

    So if a scion from birthright (or a planar traveler who acquired a bloodline while on Cerilia) traveled to a different plane, they would in effect be a (very) minor god, free to gain worshipers and the like - or be squashed like a zit by an existing god - just like any other spirit which made the leap from elemental/demon/etc spirit to true deity. Whether the gods would empower locals is a different question, with, as Gary notes, the answer being probably 'they wouldn't' but who knows how gods are born and rise?

    One easy way to deal with the gods problem is just to eliminate them - if the priests simply worship a temple structure with no self aware being at the center of the structure, you can still justify priestly casting easily enough, with the added bonus that there are no gods to oppose the PCs directly (the priests presumably don't know how the structure and regency work to oppose the PCs either) as the PCs gain regency they probably leech the accumulated power of the god-structures - or become the prayed for gods themselves...

    For scale - if each plane is formed of a few hundred 'provinces' tops, then the standard BR scale just doesn't work, but if you take each prime as say 6-12 'provinces' (i.e. the equivalent of a realm in 'standard play') each inner plane as 100-150 provinces (i.e. the equivalent of a 'standard' nation) and each outer plane similar, with the astral/ethereal/shadow planes having a few dozen scattered areas equivalent each to a standard 'realm' (and sigil/concordant opposition being another 'realm') then the scope of the game should stay manageable if suitably epic - it depends how many areas will be 'in-play' - do you expect PCs to set up shop in the Abyss? The Negative quasi-elemental plane?

    You probably wind up with a much weaker definition of regency and rulership though - for example if the players play a pantheon of gods have regency represent spiritual leaning rather than actual rule.

    As for the different RP pools for different planes, this approach doesn't sound too dis-similar to comments on deities crossing between crystal spheres, although I suppose that if you have a permanent gate between the planes it becomes fairly academic - expect such gates to be either a mixed blessing or hotly contested!

  4. #34
    hi sorry it took me so long to reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Hmm, if the gods are famous for anything, it is for disagreeing about everything.
    sigh they don't like to make things easy for DM's do they

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    So if a scion from birthright (or a planar traveler who acquired a bloodline while on Cerilia) traveled to a different plane, they would in effect be a (very) minor god, free to gain worshipers and the like - or be squashed like a zit by an existing god - just like any other spirit which made the leap from elemental/demon/etc spirit to true deity. Whether the gods would empower locals is a different question, with, as Gary notes, the answer being probably 'they wouldn't' but who knows how gods are born and rise?
    How gods are born in PS isn't as complicated as other settings they simply need to be believed in this is the reason that the believers of the source ( one of the factions) go around setting up shrines to themselves ectra. Because if they can get enough people to worship them then they become gods. The way that I understand it is that when people in planscape belive something it creates a big pool of this belive power. It doesn't matter whether it be a religion or not this is how you can get atheist clerics. However if it is a religion then it will attempt to make what ever it is being believed in real. This is why any thing that anybody believes in exists in the outerplanes somewhere.

    So as the gods are made of this belief power in planscape in order for the birthright setting to fit in with it you would have to say that the gods in cerila were made the same way (the original ones I mean) and so when they died and their power was distributed in the form of blood lines the power of the bloodlines must come from the belief of people centurys dead. Witch while a little bt creepy is kinda cool. All this mean that yes I would have thought that a scion would be much closer to godhood then a normal plannar so if they did set themselves up as a deity they wouldn't have to go as far but I still think it would take a lot of work to reach even the status of a demi-god.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    One easy way to deal with the gods problem is just to eliminate them - if the priests simply worship a temple structure with no self aware being at the center of the structure, you can still justify priestly casting easily enough, with the added bonus that there are no gods to oppose the PCs directly (the priests presumably don't know how the structure and regency work to oppose the PCs either) as the PCs gain regency they probably leech the accumulated power of the god-structures - or become the prayed for gods themselves...
    I don't think that eliminating the gods is I viable option they are a integral part of the outerplanes however from the descriptions of most of the godly domanins they do tend to let their followers to the day to day runing of their lands, theirfore they could easily be reprsented as a large empire of vassels that the PC's could interact with even if they couldn't possibly defeat them in a war. Other then that I would just say that the gods's them selves are a church fation that has control over every church in their domain.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    For scale - if each plane is formed of a few hundred 'provinces' tops, then the standard BR scale just doesn't work, but if you take each prime as say 6-12 'provinces' (i.e. the equivalent of a realm in 'standard play') each inner plane as 100-150 provinces (i.e. the equivalent of a 'standard' nation) and each outer plane similar, with the astral/ethereal/shadow planes having a few dozen scattered areas equivalent each to a standard 'realm' (and sigil/concordant opposition being another 'realm') then the scope of the game should stay manageable if suitably epic - it depends how many areas will be 'in-play' - do you expect PCs to set up shop in the Abyss? The Negative quasi-elemental plane?
    I don't think that the birthright scale need to be edited because I don't think that I will be repsenting large areas of the planes. Because the planes are infinite it would be impossible to map the whole of them and also it is quite likely that if two people took two different portals to the same plane that they could be light years apart. Therefore I think that for each area I do I should have maybe 150ish provinces. I could say have one area in the plane of fire near the city of brass and another area on the border to the quasi-plane of radiance. This would allow me to keep it under control without making the primes seem useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    As for the different RP pools for different planes, this approach doesn't sound too dis-similar to comments on deities crossing between crystal spheres, although I suppose that if you have a permanent gate between the planes it becomes fairly academic - expect such gates to be either a mixed blessing or hotly contested!
    yes I suppose that is how it works with crystal sphere isn't it that I think decides it. Different RP pools for different planes, but what about different area on the same plane and what about quasi and para-planes should RP you gain in the plane of water have an effect on the plane of ice? As for the different areas on the same plane I would say that they have pool. But the quasi/para-planes I don't know many not?

  5. #35
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keytium View Post
    How gods are born in PS isn't as complicated as other settings they simply need to be believed in this is the reason that the believers of the source ( one of the factions) go around setting up shrines to themselves ectra. Because if they can get enough people to worship them then they become gods. The way that I understand it is that when people in planscape belive something it creates a big pool of this belive power. It doesn't matter whether it be a religion or not this is how you can get atheist clerics. However if it is a religion then it will attempt to make what ever it is being believed in real. This is why any thing that anybody believes in exists in the outerplanes somewhere.
    Hmm, I'd suggest the need for some 'catalyst' to convert a person/thing/place from object of worship into a proto-deity, 2e always had a big split between demon lords, elemental princes, etc and powers of one kind or another.

    the 'believe power' you note is all that is required to permit clerical magic, as such from a mortal perspective it is all you need for 'gods' - sentient sapient beings are unnecessary. The gods are then needed only if the outerplanes actually have the beings present in them, I tend not to use the outerplanes in anything other than a McGuffin sense so didn't consider the impact on a scene in which the PCs go to Valhalla to have a few meads with Thor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keytium View Post
    I would have thought that a scion would be much closer to godhood then a normal plannar so if they did set themselves up as a deity they wouldn't have to go as far but I still think it would take a lot of work to reach even the status of a demi-god.
    Agree, but when their bloodline hits, say, 100 and a hundred provinces answer to their beck and call - how far away is the Gorgon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keytium View Post
    I don't think that eliminating the gods is I viable option they are a integral part of the outerplanes however from the descriptions of most of the godly domanins they do tend to let their followers to the day to day runing of their lands, theirfore they could easily be reprsented as a large empire of vassels that the PC's could interact with even if they couldn't possibly defeat them in a war. Other then that I would just say that the gods's them selves are a church fation that has control over every church in their domain.
    I see your point - I suggest that the only 'outer planar' areas up for grabs are various 'border lands' between the godly realms, and that, as you suggest, the actual domains in the godly realms are all run by vassals of vassals of vassals of the powers. Of course you never know, a cleric of the right kind might be able to win influence over on the godly vassal realms, assuming that you don't have to be dead to qualify...

    I'd remove the god entirely from the running though - except to say that every now and then they dictate an action - pity the warring regents who force Zeus to come down from Mount Olympus to settle their squabble!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keytium View Post
    Different RP pools for different planes, but what about different area on the same plane and what about quasi and para-planes should RP you gain in the plane of water have an effect on the plane of ice? As for the different areas on the same plane I would say that they have pool. But the quasi/para-planes I don't know many not?
    This could be represented by feats maybe - can you claim a pool that is '1 step', '2 steps' etc away? (No crossing the center for regents in the outer planes!) Technically of course a scion could gather RP in one and rule up their bloodline, then travel to the next plane and burn blood to regenerate the RP so you might want to make that harder.

    An alternative is to split RP into 'local' (generated locally) and 'introduced' (summoned from a nearby plane / through a gate / generated by burning bloodline) and have the latter only half as effective as usual. For planar travelers who complain of the exchange rate you could say that if they only have one kind of planar RP forming their bloodline, then it is 'local' to that particular plane...

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Hmm, I'd suggest the need for some 'catalyst' to convert a person/thing/place from object of worship into a proto-deity, 2e always had a big split between demon lords, elemental princes, etc and powers of one kind or another.
    i supose their is a huge gap in the power between such things yes but i can't remeber any thing in any planescape books that could justify a 'catalyst'. most mortals who become gods do so through other gods investing them normaly to replace vaccancys in which ever panthion. the belivers of the source haven't had any sucess in elivating themselves to godhood yet. the only ones who i can think of that have are the egyptian pharoes (sorry i have no idea how to spell that) so an empire the size of egypt all devoutly beliving could elivate 0one person every generation or so, thats a lot of belief.
    also it should be noted that faith is of more use to the gods the belief. as such the follower on the primes are more valuble because they are beliefing because they know the gods are real but because they have faith in the gods.
    all these things combined i think it's hard enough for someone to become a god without any more obsticals being nessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I see your point - I suggest that the only 'outer planar' areas up for grabs are various 'border lands' between the godly realms, and that, as you suggest, the actual domains in the godly realms are all run by vassals of vassals of vassals of the powers. Of course you never know, a cleric of the right kind might be able to win influence over on the godly vassal realms, assuming that you don't have to be dead to qualify...
    i couldn't agree with the borderlands idea more it would make much more sense that the PC's set up in an area that is not currently under the control of a being that could squash them with a thought. though i supposeyou right if the PC's ever got really close with one of the gods then it might be prudent to include that god's domain as an area.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    This could be represented by feats maybe - can you claim a pool that is '1 step', '2 steps' etc away? (No crossing the center for regents in the outer planes!) Technically of course a scion could gather RP in one and rule up their bloodline, then travel to the next plane and burn blood to regenerate the RP so you might want to make that harder.

    An alternative is to split RP into 'local' (generated locally) and 'introduced' (summoned from a nearby plane / through a gate / generated by burning bloodline) and have the latter only half as effective as usual. For planar travelers who complain of the exchange rate you could say that if they only have one kind of planar RP forming their bloodline, then it is 'local' to that particular plane...
    hmmmm the steps away from each other could work. their is already a model in place for working out how far one plane is from another in tterms of stepos. because every plane that an item is away from it's home plane it loses a point of it's enchantment a plus 4 sword of awesomeness on the plane of water is a standard sword in the grey wastes. a similar system could be pu into place for RP. as for the problem with buying blood and then burning it on another plane i've alredy decided that i'm out of nessesity going to have to keep blood and regency seprate because not everything in the planes can have a counts-as bloodline an so when using twice the chariter level as maxium RP instead of bloodline power they just can't buy blood or burn it.

    when you think about why can you buy blood with recency any way. it has to have something to do with the scions connection with their land and the power contained in that land. in another plane that just wouldn't be their. so prehaps buying/selling blood could be used if it was resricted to the birthright crastal sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Agree, but when their bloodline hits, say, 100 and a hundred provinces answer to their beck and call - how far away is the Gorgon?
    ok point take he would be even closer but a real demigod would have taken over the world by now not just a significant portion

  7. #37
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    The Egyptians did not believe that each new pharaoh was a new god, they believed (or it was promulgated) that each new pharaoh was Ra, the sun god. A better D&D description would be that Egypt was ruled by an avatar of Ra.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    The Egyptians did not believe that each new pharaoh was a new god, they believed (or it was promulgated) that each new pharaoh was Ra, the sun god. A better D&D description would be that Egypt was ruled by an avatar of Ra.
    My deep aplogies after looking into the matter i discovered you are right. I mistakenly thought that each pharoh was given a place in the egyptian panthion. Sorry for any confusion caused.
    In which case i can think of no major gods to come from mortality to godhood without divine intervention.

  9. #39
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keytium View Post
    My deep aplogies after looking into the matter i discovered you are right. I mistakenly thought that each pharoh was given a place in the egyptian panthion. Sorry for any confusion caused.
    In which case i can think of no major gods to come from mortality to godhood without divine intervention.
    It depends on quite what you mean by ascension and intervention - and whether you look just at RL myth of modern gaming pantheons.

    RL mythology will tend to avoid ascension as it is untidy over the long term, although Imhotep from Egyptian myth is one possible example of divine ascension in RL myth, you get humans to spirits in greek myth, although I can't think of one mortal ascending properly (various offspring of the gods excluded) and most of those had a lot of divine intervention if not outright aid.

    In 'modern mythology' was Vecna aided to become a god - or did he twist and turn to win divinity? What about Kyuss? Gord the Rogue? Finder Wyvernspur? Various demon princes?

    The origin of the 'spark' to get the initial jump from 'just a mortal' to 'a small god who maybe, just maybe, could become truly divine' is easy in Cerilia - bloodline, in a wider planescape setting there are any number of dead gods from whom the divine spark could have been drawn, similarly champions of the gods imbued with their power who have outlived their patron / turned from grace, not to mention of course the offspring of various gods - was Bhall the only god who got frisky in the realms during the time of troubles? I somehow doubt it...

    The issue is really 'how epic do you want it to get' and 'what do the real gods do about upstarts who become noticeable'. I'd suggest that once a 'scion' of whatever flavour gets noticeable either they find a patron fast, or they risk being consumed for their spark of divinity, of course perhaps the end-goal of the campaign is to become a true god in a pantheon, either the patron saint of a city/nation, or perhaps even filling an empty 'slot' cf the time of troubles'.

    It could get amusing in Sigil if one 'clicks over' from 'joe scion' to 'mr wild ride to divinity or bust' - the Lady of Pain having issues with foreign gods...

  10. #40
    i'm not really sure that a "divine spark" is the right way to go the idea of someone having to steal or be given divinity does sort of rule out and lafull gods energing, because a lawful chariter would never go out of his way to steal the godhood of another even a dead one. it would be against the order of the universe. i simpley think that enough "belef power" which could be obtained in many ways bloodline godly favour/ heritige, feindish power/heratige, raw belief. important religous artifacts, stealing power directly from gods (probaly dead ones as you pointed out. the live one i amagine would be slightly peeved if you stole their power) it could possibly even be stolen directly from the mortals souls (well that s where the gods power comes from in the first place so why not?)

    and so while i think that yes the first "Spark" of divinity wouldn't come from belief it would likly come from something else. i don't think that their should be a differnce between those with a divine spark who can harness belief and those without one who can't

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