Birthright in Planescape\spelljammer setting.

[Keytium]

hi me and a group of freinds have been considering doing a birthright campaign in the planescape\spelljammer setting (though we don't expect spelljamming to be a major part we still want it included) when it first came up i though it was going to be easy, but after thinking about it i've realised that it will take alot of planning.

the adventuring will be easy as their will be no change from the normal rules for planescape but the doman rules will be much harder to adapt and so i thought i would ask for advice. some of the problems we've thought of are. can laylines go through portals? should spelljamming be treated as a sort of super trade route? should portals be man-made, only natural portals or both? if man-made are included how do we keep the numbers under contol? what about portals that move what do we do about them? should portals be holdings?( the higher the level the more stable and the bigger ectra) what sorts of extra planar terain should we have? how should we deal with the inherant 3D nature of certain plans (air, earth and limbo for example)?

oh and it's going to be a 3.5e game (srry but i just hate 4th ed) so what do you all think. any ideas or suggestions are welcome.

[Sorontar]

This does sound very interesting. Others have talked about adapting Domain rules for scifi cities before, though I don't think I have heard of Planescape/Spelljammer adaptions. Most references I think were about using Aebrynis in a Ps/Sj campaign.

But how to map Portals etc to Domains....

Spelljamming could be thought of as a ocean trade route. The portal could be thought of as a port. Like a port, it could be managed by anyone but probably a guild. Who controls law around the portal depends on who has a law holding in the "province".

As for placing a limit on number of portals, how about making them require some "energy" from the plane to work. Some provinces have stronger energies than others. This energy would work just like a province level (and probably match it). As the energy level goes up, the source potential goes down.

Or may be you could make it a variation on sources. A source could either be left to run free and be used for realm magic, or it could be harnessed for a portal. So the source regent would have to decide how much of his source domain to devote to his personal power and how much to use to further the trading power of the area. And if he wanted to boast the power of his portal, he would just have to change the portal:magic ratio. He may even want to use more power from other sources using a leyline.

Sorontar, who really knows little about Spelljamming.

[Keytium]

i like the idea of conflicting source/portal level, that would certainly eliminate the problem of too many portals. perhaps (if we are using the idea of portals as holding not ports) have them couting towards the maxium source limit as if they were a source holding so for example in a 5/7 province you could have a level 4 source and a level 3 portal or 2 level 2 portals and a level 1 source.

if useing them as ports their could be problems with how much can realisticaly get through a portal because they could be anything from a small trapdoor to a huge vortex hundreads of miles across.

[Magian]

When you mention portals as holdings what comes to mind for me is the unharness portal that naturally occurs. Harnessing a portal like making a stargate or fading suns like gate around the portal to keep it there, power it, and use it on a more permanent basis would be required before it would be a holding. Or something like that. The gorgon's alliance PC game implies that the neolithic structures of Stonehenge are sources, which could be used as a concept to justify gates or structures to focus and harness energies for the things in question.

Trade routes simply need a route and the traffic to travel that route unimpeded so I think anything is possible regarding Spelljammer trade routes, however I'd think it may be harder to blockade or decree them out of existence as borders are more easily circumvented. So that could be considered when making rules for them.

Again regarding portals I'd suggest a possible shadow taint from the nature of the Shadow world that can allow porting to have a risk of ending up trapped in the shadow world or something to that effect. Just a thought.

Ley lines going through portals? I'd require a focus or holding structure for them on the otherside of the portal. It may take more to maintain such a ley line and maybe even so much so that it's best to keep them as a temporary thing. If you allow domain rules for other planes, then you can have sources and ley lines on the other side as well. Either way though there are just some ideas that come to mind that tend to be Cerilia centric. There is no need to increase or limit ley lines at all if you want this campaign and the domain rules to spread across the multiverse.

The physics of extra-planar terrain has always been fuzzy to me. Applying the domain rules to them should be easy by following the exceptions that have been made in adventures where structures and terrain has been layed out where PCs can function as the 3D creatures they are. (4D if you watch cosmos) Regarding trade routes I'd simply use a planar tag with each type of terrain so when you have forrests or mountains they'd be considered different from Cerilian forrests or mountains or other planar tagged types of parallel terrain. That is to say if water plane mountains were linked to fire plane or Cerilian mountains it'd be considered a different terrain type. Then again that's just using earth physics for these planes, which I've found TSR...oops I mean WOTC doing with adventures and settings in outter planes settings.

Regarding your choice of rules being 3.5 I agree that is a much better choice than 4.

The limit on portals I would suggest being for harnessed portals on the holding level if you like the idea of what I had above. It seems the ideas are taking off here.

[Keytium]

hi thanks for the response. i don't agree that a holding would have to repressent a harnessed portal, at least not at the lower levels a level 0 portal would be a area where the boundries between the two worlds are thiner a level one would be a place that portals apear in a ocasional and chaotic way a level 2 could be a portal that apears on a reliable skedual such as only when the moon is in eclispe or some such thing.

i really like the idea of spelljammer routes being a harder to block verson of a normal trade route i can see that working well.The focus block thing for the leylines also make's sense but as for them being temporary in nature i think that could be hard to make rules for.

the terrain in most of the outerplanes can certainly be explaned away with just calling them Elysium plains or Arcadia hills ectra. but some need more new terrian types like cogland for Mechanus and hills in hades have greatly differnt propaties to normal hills. i think that the only way to do it is to go through each plane and see it as making new terrian types exspecialy in the inner planes because mountains in the positive energy plane can almost certainly support a higher maxium province level then normal mountains.

unfortuatly the idea of shadow tait just doesn't fit the setting as i don't think we'll be setting it in Cerilia (though don't quote me on that as it's liable to change) and in the planscape cosmology you don't go through the shadow plane to get anywhere you go through the etherial plane to get to the inner planes and the astral to get to the outter planes.

[Keytium]

i've been thinking about terrian in this champaign and i've gone through and complied a list of how i think the outer planes should vary from the prime material plan

Elysium:basical the same as prime material plane prehaps themountains of Eronia should have -1 maximum province level because storms keep distroying things?

Beastlands: still the same as prime material but prehaps -1 maximum province level on Karasuthra (except for nocturnal races) for it always being night.

Arborea: i can't think of anything differnt about this plane.

Ysgard: same with this one.

Limbo: wow well i guess you would have areas that are stablised by someones mind and divide them up into whatever terrian the creator saw fit. we don't need rules for uncontroled areas of limbo because the only thing that doesn't need to control an area around in order to survive are limbo's petitioners and the slaadi.as for dealing with the 3D nature of the plane see my note on that at the end.

Pandemonium:i guess the tunels would have to shown onthe map with provences being caverns big enough to support a population. as for dealing with the 3D nature of the plane see my note on that at the end. so for this plane we would need caverns as a new terrian. i think perhaps a maximum province level of 2. (it's a preaty in hospitible place) and a maximum province level of 1 on Cocytus because of the wind their being even worse.

Abyss:everything anything it would depend on what sort of layer was made up by the DM.

Carceri: most layers are mostly normal. you would need rules for dealing with chasms for the layer of Colothys and on the layer of Porphatys you have acid seas which could perhaps be dealt with simply with the removal of the +2 maximum province level for being coastal.

Hades: as most of this plane is mostly open planes which are normaly 8 maximum province level i would think perhaps a blanket -6 maximum province level for the entire plane.

Gehenna:most of the plane would count as mountainous(except maybe Krangath which would tundra) but you would need rules for the volcanic crators which would probaly be uninhabitable (except by fire ristant races)

Baator:well Avernus would be mostly planes but i would think they would have at least a -4 maximum province level. the whole of Dis would have maximum province level of 10 being as it's just one big city. Minauros would just be a normal swamp. Phlegethos would have lava flows whitch could be -5 maximum province level and the lakes of lava could do the same for an province they border. Stygia would be inhospitible enough if the whole place is tundra. i have no idea what to do about Malbolge. Maladominiwould i think be the same as Avernus. Cania should possibly be uninhabitalble unless you have cold resistance. Nessus is another hard one to do i'll think some thing up later.

Acheron: the terrian would be normal but maps would have to be made on nets of 3D shapes.

Mechanus: ummmmm well coglands. i haven't got a clue.

Arcadia: it's pratically the plane of bordom no changes.

Mount Celestia: made up of hill and mountain provances, but yet still has a large population i think +3 to maximum province level would be about right.

Bytopia: no change.

Outlands: i don't know possibly not change (appart from near the spire)

note that i've not made any comments on the source potential of any of the planes i'll edit it as ideas come together for it.

about 3D planes be they ones that you float around in (Air, limbo, areas between orbs in carceri, acheron and any of the layers of the abyss it might aply to) or the ones with tunels (earth, Pandemonium and again of the layers of the abyss it might aply to) you could just make a map for each area of 1 or more joined provinces and then work out a distance to each other place then on the map draw dotted line between each area with a note saying how far away they are from each other. travel between these areas would take time depending on the distance and the propities of the plane (travel would be fastest in the air plane slowest in the earth). thats the best system i can seem to think of feel free to suggest any changes if you think something is wronge.

[bigmac]

Spelljamming could be thought of as a ocean trade route. The portal could be thought of as a port. Like a port, it could be managed by anyone but probably a guild. Who controls law around the portal depends on who has a law holding in the "province".

Hmm. Sounds like you have been reading the really distorted discription of a 'spelljammer' that is in the 4e Manual of the Planes.

In 2e (and 3e's Shadows of the Spider Moon) spelljamming is something that allows ships to fly into the sky and then into space. It has nothing to do with the sort of portals that are used to go to other planes.

There are some things called portals in SJ, but these are really holes that let you get through a crystal sphere. From a Birthright point of view, these sorts of portals would be things that let people get into and out of the phlogiston.

You couldn't really control the portals of 'Birthspace' because they are thousands (if not millions) of miles away from the nearest planet. It would be possible for a ship to sit near a portal and try to board any ships that come through, but at some point a fleet of Mind Flayer Nautiloids (or equally nasty ships) would come sailing through the portal and take out a ship sitting there on 'toll duty'.

Sorontar, who really knows little about Spelljamming.

Well, I know little about Birthright, but hope to get enlightened in the next few years.

[Sorontar]

Birthright works on the premise that there are two planes or worlds that are involved - Aebrynis and the Shadow World. Historically, they were originally one and the same, but now they exist separately. There are loose connections between them at points in Aebrynis where the Darkness or Shadow is strong. Some of these points are permanent, some are temporary. To get from Aebrynis to the SW you either have to be at one of these points (intentionally or accidentally) or have a suitable magical ability (through spells or a natural ability cf. halflings). To teleport etc, you use travel in the SW, even if it is for a fleeting second (see also McCaffrey's Pern dragons and Between).

Given this, I feel that any way of getting out of the Birthsphere has to

1. go through the Shadow World
2. be so difficult that it can only be done at certain places or with super-magic

Therefore, a helmsman is not enough. You should need the helmsman to be at the right location (like a SJ source). If such points exist in your campaign, then regents will fight over them. They can be used as "ports", i.e. the start of shipping routes even if the actual routes are never defined. You may call them Portals or portals may be the gateways produced by the helmsman. Portals may or may not be permenantly open. Likewise, the SJ Source may or may not always be useable.

I am not sure how SW and Aebrynis would fit in the Spelljamming idea of what spheres are. Perhaps there are actually two spheres and SWspehere has Aebrynisspere inside it.

Hope that explains my suggestion better.

Sorontar

[Green Knight]

If you're going to combine BR and SJ/PS I really don't see the need to go all out with the 'BR-world cut of from the rest of the multiverse' mantra.

Instead have the Daylight World and the Shadow World coexist, but each has the same relationship to the Astral Plane that a normal game world would.

Spelljamming and planar travel would then function normally.

[bbeau22]

I am with Green Knight on this one. If you are going to go as far as to include Spelljamming with Birthright ... might as well change a few Birthright rules so they match correctly.

I already treat the shadow world like a buffer against the rest of the universe. If you actually want to get to the outerplanes you need to travel through the shadow world (which I make extremely dangerous.)

For Spelljamming, you could say that the planet that Birthright is in is surrounded by a unique wild space that is based off of the shadow world. You have to assume that the the mechanics that keep the people of Birthright on their prime material plane would also stop or slow down other methods to transportation.

-BB