dundjinnmasta's Birthright 4e Conversion Thread

[kgauck]

I'd still prefer one a floater

I'm not sure I see the need for a floater. If you take the standard array or point buy your stats in the first place the only advantage of a floater is to more easily build a min-max character outside the cultural norms (since racial ability adjustments are assigned after assigning scores). I think min-maxing should be easier within those norms. Either way you can may the normal range pf powerful characters, its really just about getting that 18 at a more reasonable price.

[kgauck]

Politics is 10% planning and 90% negotiating. Charisma is the core skill.

[WickerNipple]

There is nothing within the above that suggests a single bonus to CHA. They are are warlike people, their regents are warriors, they follow the god of war, and the old empire conquered most domains and thus STR is the best fit for them as a warrior people.

The trouble I see it dundjin is you're taking the notion that many Anuireans are warriors and giving them Strength because it's the best stat for Fighters. This doesn't really follow.

A racial bonus exists to illustrate the needs and the development of a society. You can view the stats the races have by this point in the timeline as a form of Darwinism.

Anuirean leaders are often warriors, certainly - but the core stats they need to survive in their highly evolved and involved society aren't physical ones. This is a not a society where the physically strong inherently wins out over or preys upon the weak. Their cultural norm favors diplomacy, trade, negotiation - and the majority of power to be found within the Anuirean lands is found in the boardroom or the vestry, not the battlefield.

Two more points on the subject:

First, given 4th ed classes, I'd argue Warlord, not Fighter would the core Anuirean regent class.

Second, giving Anuireans (or anyone else, for that matter), a +2 to Str is essentially saying "they are as strong as the Vos". The Vos as a culture are stronger than the other humans on the continent. There's not much way to avoid that.

I'm not sure I see the need for a floater.

There isn't necessarily one. But they're fun, imo, and give players more of an opportunity to flavor their characters. It also still gives the impression of versatility re: Humans that many players have come to expect out of them. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and imo lets us appease both sides - those that see humans as flexible, and those that see Birthright humans as distinctive races.

In many ways, I think the floater is even more valuable in BR as it emphasizes the core stat for each race - and then allows the player to develop the character in the way they deem fit. Player Characters by their nature tend to sit slightly outside the norm for their race - and very few settings separate players as much from "normal people" as BR does.

[irdeggman]

Anuireans follow the god of "noble" war, "rulership" and "law".

The god of war in the way you are viewing things is Cuircean.

Diplomacy is the skill most accurately associated with lawful rulership (hence Charisma).

Strength is the ability most associated with forceful coercion (there have been variations that had Intimidate be tied to Str for this specific purpose).


All human races in Cerilia have been associated with war at one time or another. The Brecht went for the more "stealthful" version via absorbing the cultures and being the economic power behind the throne - but even they have a long history of war. So saying that because a race is associated with war they should have an ability bonus to Str is an oversimplification (and hence all human races should have it).

[irdeggman]

First, given 4th ed classes, I'd argue Warlord, not Fighter would the core Anuirean regent class.

I agree with this.

There isn't necessarily one. But they're fun, imo, and give players more of an opportunity to flavor their characters. It also still gives the impression of versatility re: Humans that many players have come to expect out of them. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and imo lets us appease both sides - those that see humans as flexible, and those that see Birthright humans as distinctive races.

Hmm that is the point of assigning abilities scores where you wish them. And the base mechanic in 4th ed is not the random dice roll method of generating ability scores anymore.

In many ways, I think the floater is even more valuable in BR as it emphasizes the core stat for each race - and then allows the player to develop the character in the way they deem fit. Player Characters by their nature tend to sit slightly outside the norm for their race - and very few settings separate players as much from "normal people" as BR does.

I see it as a way to minimize the core stat for each race. Because players will invariably min-max their way around that by using the floater to makie up for a score they minimized to keep things balanced.

[WickerNipple]

I see it as a way to minimize the core stat for each race. Because players will invariably min-max their way around that by using the floater to makie up for a score they minimized to keep things balanced.

Players are going to min/max their way around things anyway.

Keeping the floater plus the original stat mod from 2nd edition lets us keep true to both the spirit of the original game and the 4th ed representation of Humans. I like that, and I don't think it hurts Birthright in the slightest.

Not opposed to going the route of assigned stats though, see earlier post with how I see those.

[DerekSTheRed]

This is my first time to post on these forums but I love BR and I have a lot of ideas on 4E BR that I want to share. As I read through the 4E core setting it reminded me so much of Birthright that I've decided to start running a 4E home game set in Birthright soon. I am very interested in any conversion ideas. Allow me to suggest some ideas I had.

1. Sidhelien are divided up into to Elves and Eladrin. After much thought I think the best explanation would be to say all Sidhe in the Aelvinnwode are Eladrin and all others (like Rhoube or the inhabitants of the Sielwode) are elves. The Eladrin/Elf split in 4E is based around the Eladrin's proximity to the Feywild or portals to the Feywild. I think the story of Torele Anviras going into the Aelvinnwode and returning a century later not a day older could be explained by saying he wandered into the Feywild.

2. Humans don't need to be changed mechanically based on their subrace. I think the way the FRPG does character backgrounds is best. Give a free minor ability to each region in addition to racial features. Little things, like a +2 to diplomacy skills for Anuireans, don't change the outcome of fights and will maintain balance yet add flavor to the regional differences.

3. Blood abilities could be modeled after the FRPG's Spellscarred. It's a multi-class only class. You spend a feat at first level to become blooded and receive a minor ability based on the bloodline. After that you can spend a feat to swap a class power with a blood power (for a max of 3 swapped powers at 10th level). Then you have a paragon path just for blooded characters who've taken all the feats to that point. Each bloodline would have their own set of powers and at each level you can choose from a physical power based off of str, dex or con, or a mental power based off of int, wis, or cha. In all cases you would choose your highest stat of the choices.

4. Aduria was never described in detail. It would be possible to place Tieflings and/or Dragonborn on that continent and not conflict with existing canon. GMs or players would have to give a reason why the two races are suddenly showing up in other parts of the world, but I have a lot of faith in creative GMs and players to come up with something that works for them. Dropping them completely won't exactly hurt my feelings however.

5. I think you should give halflings the choice on racial features. I don't think they should have to choose the shadow walk ability since not all halflings in BR can open portals to the shadow world. Allowing them to pick the luck ability or the shadow ability means more choices for halfling players which is good IMO.

5. Realm spells would pretty much be more expensive and more time consuming rituals that require sources as part of their components.

Reading through the posts so far, it seems there are 2 ways to do the conversion. Change the setting to fit the new edition, or change the edition to fit the setting. I personally think the 2 fit close enough the few changes would need to be made at all. My personal preference is to add choices to the existing rules that fit the BR flavor, and then say most of the characters in the BR use those new choices. This is why I don't think it necessary to change the Human races to fit flavor. You can get flavor in other ways that don't involve changing the rules. Why create more work then necessary?

Derek

[dundjinnmasta]

Some people are okay with just the minor flavor changes to the edition to make it feel like the setting while other people are not. I haven't updated anything because I haven't been able to work on it but I started the project because I wasn't trying to jam Birthright in 4e which I could have done as you outlined above but I was trying to adapt 4e to Birthright. Some people are even more touchy about it then me and feel that Birthright should remain its own unique setting within the fourth edition and therefore the edition needs to be altered to fit the setting.

[irdeggman]

4. Aduria was never described in detail. It would be possible to place Tieflings and/or Dragonborn on that continent and not conflict with existing canon. GMs or players would have to give a reason why the two races are suddenly showing up in other parts of the world, but I have a lot of faith in creative GMs and players to come up with something that works for them. Dropping them completely won't exactly hurt my feelings however.

Except for the fact that there is only 1 race of dragons and their number is extremely limited - so a history for the race of dragonborn is lacking.

Tieflings are the result of a human pact with the devils - and devils and demons didn't exist in BR. {See the 2nd ed rulebook AD&D monsters in Cerilia (pg 89}

5. I think you should give halflings the choice on racial features. I don't think they should have to choose the shadow walk ability since not all halflings in BR can open portals to the shadow world. Allowing them to pick the luck ability or the shadow ability means more choices for halfling players which is good IMO.

Actually in 2nd ed all halflings had that ability - see 2nd ed rulebook pg 8.

Now the ability to open up portals large enough for armies to pass through was written in the first novel but never in any of the 2nd ed rules. The BRCS (3.5 rulesset) added it based on the novel and that people in general thought it fit as an optional feat.

The question is do you go back to the 2nd ed original rules and materials in order to make any conversion or do you go to the BRCS and convert a conversion?

I would always go back to the source myself.

[dundjinnmasta]

I have definitely been trying to use the 2e Birthright material for conversion but alot of the BRCS is good for adding the fluff to it.