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  1. #21
    I have also been meaning to start a list like this but haven't had a chance with two small babies to take care of.

    When I get a chance I will start up a Wiki.

  2. #22
    Reading back and forth. I am having problems with deciding... as I read good arguments for leaving the humans with the floater and going for "culture" feats or making each subrace into a complete race and removing the vanilla floater as I have had the gnawing thought that forcing the floater into a stat and forcing a skill would make humans weaker because their strength is in them being versatile.

    Leaving the floater in place and using culture feats does seem easier and could explain "subraces" born away from their own race but I am attempting at this point to make a new race for each subrace, more work for me but probably best. I am just trying to find which race to best balance them against.
    Last edited by dundjinnmasta; 09-24-2008 at 04:50 AM.

  3. #23
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tiamat View Post
    The versatility of Humans is part of the game balance. The other Races get a fixed +4
    As Kenneth pointed out that is true for "vanilla" campaigns but not so for a "setting" like BR.

    If I were to run a 4th campain I would fix the scores for most NPC's, but allow the floater for PC characters and some NPC's... For example, Anuireans have a tendency towards wisdom, but some individuals have other strenghts...
    Kenneth's question on this one is accurate to gain a perpective.

    Another one is what type of BR game do you play?

    Is it FR with bloodlines and domain actions overlaid or do you run it as the original material laid out?

    From historical posts there are a lot of people who do the former (FR with bloodlines and domain actions overlaid) and consider that "Birthright".

    Basically, IMO, they are confusing game mechanics with setting design.

    Bloodlines and domain actions are game mechanics that could be exported if desired. They do not define the setting, they are however mechanics that showcase the setting design.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #24
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    The notion of humans as Mr. Versatility is a concept that belongs in vanilla D&D, not BR.
    Untrue IMO, but nevermind. The main point is that a reduced flexibility needs to be compensated to avoid weakening the race with regards to game balance...we can't have any of THAT!
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dundjinnmasta View Post
    Reading back and forth. I am having problems with deciding... as I read good arguments for leaving the humans with the floater and going for "culture" feats or making each subrace into a complete race and removing the vanilla floater as I have had the gnawing thought that forcing the floater into a stat and forcing a skill would make humans weaker because their strength is in them being versatile.

    Leaving the floater in place and using culture feats does seem easier and could explain "subraces" born away from their own race but I am attempting at this point to make a new race for each subrace, more work for me but probably best. I am just trying to find which race to best balance them against.
    We on this board have that effect on people. There are always great opinions and you get a good look at how different people run Birthright. It is a testament to a great campaign setting.

    3rd edition humans had a bit of versatile with having a free feat at first level and 4th edition took it to the next level with stats points also.

    - Switch them to a +4 stat race. Give them a fixed +2/+2 per region.
    - For their bonus feat at first level limit it to feats that are regional based (created by us new) or feats in the players handbook that fits each region the best. For example ...

    Khanasi

    Bonus feats choices: Armor prof (leather), Expanded Spellbook (wizard), Ritual Caster (wizard only), Skill Focus (Arcana, Diplomacy or History)

    Then toss in some unique regional feats to the list. I am in a bit of a rush so my creative thinking isn't working too well. Will try to come up with some later.


    The rest can remain the same. Now my set up isn't perfect and probably not quite balanced yet ... this is just to give you an idea of what I am thinking.

    -BB

  6. #26
    I'm also converting BR into 4th ed at the moment, and just gave my players the racial fixed +2 in addition to the floater. (But no stacking the fixed + floater.)

    Since all my players are Human, I didn't feel the need to balance out the fact that this technically overpowers humans compared to the other races.

    (And also, since I've always felt BR was a Human-centric game, I don't really mind players feeling a mechanical encouragement to play them.)

    If I were writing my conversion for publication and decided I didn't want that mechanical encouragement, I would remove the human bonus feat to compensate, and replace it with +2 to 2 skills dependent on race.

    Anuirean: Insight / Diplomacy
    Brecht: Streetwise / Diplomacy
    Khinasi: Arcana / History
    Rjurik: Nature / Perception
    Vos: Nature / Intimidate
    Last edited by WickerNipple; 09-24-2008 at 11:50 PM.

  7. #27
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Knight View Post
    Untrue IMO, but nevermind. The main point is that a reduced flexibility needs to be compensated to avoid weakening the race with regards to game balance...we can't have any of THAT!
    At one time I suggested giving a bonus feat to humans (from a list of cultural specific ones) in order to adjust for the fixed ability bonus.

    But it should also be noted that in 4th ed ability score adjustments at 1st level have a much lesser effect than it did in 3.5 and much less than 2nd ed. This is because of how frequently (and how much) the ability score "increases" are in the leveling up process.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #28
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    It is also true that every race invented from here on out will be given +2 to two fixed ability scores, and a set of distinct special abilities, instead of the human bonus feat, bonus skill, bonus power, and unlimited +1 save bonus. If every race other than human can be constructed this way, why not BR humans as well?

  9. #29
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    It is also true that every race invented from here on out will be given +2 to two fixed ability scores, and a set of distinct special abilities, instead of the human bonus feat, bonus skill, bonus power, and unlimited +1 save bonus. If every race other than human can be constructed this way, why not BR humans as well?

    I am not sure about the "every race from now on will be given +2 to two fixed ability scores" though. I wouldn't place a bet on that pattern being followed for very long, based on WotC history of adaptation.

    The rest is very true - it is all a "complete package" and should be treated as such. They should have somethings that give "synergy" to abilities that are tied to the race - that seems to be the essential part of the core rules on races (which is mostly missing from the "vanilla" humans due to their emphasis on adaptation and not on racial focus (which is more in line with the original BR material - that is racial focus).
    Duane Eggert

  10. #30
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    That's true, we might see a +4 in one ability for some races in future. What I really meant was that we won't see the versatile human again, because its not necessary for balance. There are other ways to make a balanced race.

    Point taken.

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