Caliedhe Dosiere

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
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> kgauck wrote:
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> If he is created any lower than that then he would be at a disadvatage to the other regents out to remove him from power. Avan would have certainly been able to erode his power and clain the Imperial City for himself by now.
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> I find a lot to object to, but the crux of the matter here, I think is this. What level you are has no bearing on the domain system. Certainly not in 2nd edition. In terms of his position in the Imperial City he could be a 1st level commoner with skills in leather crafting and he`s no weaker than the 28th level monstrosity he is in Ruins.
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> So AFAIC, his position in the Imperial City has nothing what so ever to do with how many levels he should have. Not for the Chamberlain or any other regent.
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I don´t agree here. Level in 2E had an influence on the domain system.

More levels meant more non-weapon-proficiencys of which those new NWP´s
from the 2E BR Rulebook like
Administration, Diplomacy, Law or Intrigue all influenced the domain
system and having them meant an advantage over other regents who did not
have them.

So a "1st level Commoner" would not be able to do what the Chamberlain
did do even if he had the same bloodline, goldbar income and regency points.

And I envisioned the Chamberlain as the master of Diplomacy and Law
having maintained his position in the City of Anuire right before the
nose of Avanil and his armies without having the military might to repel
Avans (should he decide to) attack alone.

*my* Chamberlain must be of a higher character level then either Avan or
Boeruine and be able to defeat them both in diplomatic matters or
matters of Law.


Additionally there were two domain rules directly tied to character
level: "A regent may take one free action per character level in this
phase". This rule is as far as I remember not in the BR Rulebook, but it
is printed on the "Domain Turn summary" cardboard that came with the
boxed set.
Second was Domain Initiative (who goes first in the domain turns): It
was determined by rolling 1D10 and adding the characterlevel of the
regent. A high character level meant that you had better chances to get
your actions done first and possibly prevent others from succeding
against you.

[kgauck]

Well, we have stat'd out Darien Avan and Aeric Boeruine. Elton did Aeric and I did Darien. We don't need to theorize about how strong the Chancellor must be to overcome Aeric and Darien in law and diplomacy. We can look at their pages and know.

But, a character's ability to engage in diplomacy and legal disputes is not limited to his own skills. It is possible to hire a lawyer, possible to engage a diplomat. So a 1st level commoner could defeat Darien Avan and Aeric Boeruine by the use of law and diplomacy by having lawyers and diplomats who have these skills. The Chamberlain has an organization, indeed a domain, and does not have to rely on his personal skills to get things done.

I don't understand why, in Birthright, its so easily forgotten that the people in question have access to top advisers. Further, such reasoning immediately suggests that just as their is a college of wizardry in the imperial city, there is a college of imperial law as well, and this may be a reservoir of some of the best legal minds in Anuire, some of whom are willing to serve the Chamberlain's legal needs: for the Empire.

The fact is, from my perspective, whether Chamberlain is too high for the PC's or too low, its more likely that they would be matched against some lieutenant of the Chamberlains who was a recurring character and well matched as an adversary of the PC's.

If we imagine that Caliedhe must have all the skills and abilities to single handedly defeat Darien Avan, and Aeric Boeruine, and Gavin Tael, and Hierl Diem, and Guilder Kalien, and the Sword Mage, and PC 1, PC 2, and PC 3, its no wonder he needs to be 28th level. Aeric Boeruine is designed as a conquering general, Darien Avan as a cunning diplomat, Hierl is a schemer, and Gavin another conqueror.

But if one looks at actual organizations too see how they work, and use that in BR, the Chamberlain would have an ambassador to Boeruine, another to Avanil, another to Ghoere, and another to Diemed, and so on.

But let's not stop there. In point of fact, to stop the diplomacy of Darien Avan, the Chamberlain basically has free use of Boeruine's legal and diplomatic corps as well as any others who might wish to see Avanil thwarted.

So there is no relationship between domain power and personal power. This is part of the appeal of Birthright. And so the need for the Chamberlain to run an effective domain does not justify why the person of the chamberlain should be out of line with the other NPC's in terms of character level.

[Green Knight]

So there is no relationship between domain power and personal power. This is part of the appeal of Birthright. And so the need for the Chamberlain to run an effective domain does not justify why the person of the chamberlain should be out of line with the other NPC's in terms of character level.

Not sure I agree with there being NO relationship...at least I don't think it should be. Perhaps in a perfect world regent and domain could be completely separate in terms of power. But for the average player and the average camapign, it is easier and better if the regent and the domain is linked in terms of power.

It need not be a FIXED relationship...but some link is needed for me. IMO the regent is very much the personification of his realm - at least it makes for good games, makes it easier for players to relate. A domain is a pretty obscure entity...a regent they can talk and interact with. In a way I envision this like domain/regent alignment...it will not be a happy marriage if they are very different. One or the other has to change over time or the regent has to go. So it would be problematic for a low-level rogue to rule a large militant realm like Boeruine. And so Boeruine tends to produce, more often than not, capable warrior-types of LNish alignment.

[kgauck]

I think a relationship between character level and domain level makes some sense. But its not necessary. A 1st level chamberlain who has skills in leather working is an example to make a point, not a serious recommendation for a design.

In general I would apply a sense of proportion as Green Knight suggests, unless story reasons suggested otherwise (new regent, feckless regent, &c). But, let us not forget that the arguments for a super-Chamberlain are in fact the reverse, very small domain, very high levels.

In general I appreciate the Arthurian sense that the health and strength of the ruler and domain are connected. But, as you say, not fixed.

[AndrewTall]

One point on level is that when you make the setting, not every opponent is an opponent 'today'. As such at L1, even L5-6, the imperial chamberlain is not a potential opponent - a flunky of his may be, but you are probably at least 2 minions from the Chamberlain himself.

At L1-5 I see a PC as making a name.
At L6-10 I see them taking on and building up a realm
At L11 I see them starting to shape Cerilia about them and be seen as a growing power - until this point the chamberlain isn't an issue except as a McGuffin for plots, so he should be designed as a threat for this level PC.

Obviously other people would set other level ranges for the types of gameplay, but imho until the PC has amassed some significant power - either personally, or at a domain level, the chamberlain should be waaaay above them - as should other iconic people (Avan, Isaelie, Rhoubhe, etc).

As 3-4 levels above his 'rivals' the chamberlain comes in at L15-17 or so, skilled enough to maximise use of his domain assets but not so overwhelming as to ask questions why he hasn't taken over nearby provinces, law holdings, etc.

As for class, a skill-heavily class makes a lot of sense - he is not supposed to be a battlefield 'army of one'. I'd expect that the chamberlain himself should be a noble / rogue with a diviner as an employee b/c his core character concept is that of a diplomat and the shift from NWP's to Skills makes keeping
him as a diviner oppose that concept.


I'd note as a professional advisor in RL, that although a regent can buy advice, the benefit they get from it will tend to depend on their personal skill - they need to know what advice to buy and to use it when it is received. To be able to tie Avan, Boeruine et al in diplomatic or legal knots the chamberlain has to be pretty good at diplomacy or law himself - his lawyers aren't going to give you proof that under para 12 to Schedule 4 of the Ascension act of 538 HC the manor willed to Avan actually has to go to the count of Taeghas unless he thinks to ask them and understands how to find the proof / spring the diplomatic ambush on Avan...

[kgauck]

his lawyers aren't going to give you proof [...] unless he thinks to ask them and understands how to find the proof / spring the diplomatic ambush on Avan...

This is much more true today, I think. There are plenty of cases when advisers were basically running the show for the crown. Some monarchs (probabaly plenty of monarchs) didn't want to be bothered with the duties of state, and left their advisers and officers alone to conduct business.

There are also the cases where some officers and advisers so expected to be left alone to conduct policy without the bother of the actual crown that they were indignant when actually given instructions.

But to the extent that the regent is actually trying to rule, rather than just rubber stamping his advisers, he does need to know enough to understand what he is being told. Andrew will recall my own typology of analysis: the analyst has four jobs, collect data, analyze data, interpret data, and explain the analysis. If I can't explain the analysis, or you can't understand my explanation, then you can't use my analysis, and either have to trust me or try something else.

[AndrewTall]

One problem I come across is with a new client who comes to me due to 'bad advice' from a previous adviser. Quite often the advice itself was fine, but the client didn't properly understand it, hadn't properly explained their situation making it invalid, 'improved it', or with an ongoing scheme decided that they didn't need to buy the implementation since they had the underlying advice.

It can be difficult fixing the problem when the client now 'knows' that the original advice was 'bad' so has to have their problem solved in an entirely different manner, often one that is far more complex than the previous advice which is now diplomatically impossible to advise on

In BR terms I'd say that an adviser can give a skill bonus, lower the DC, allow an unskilled person to use a skill requiring training at minimal level, but cannot simply take the skill check for the PC.

Really the adviser needs 2 skills, the technical skill (knowledge X, profession Y, etc) to identify the solution and some form of diplomacy to convey it clearly.

As for situations where the adviser runs the show, this is a recurrent theme in literature and history - 3 musketeers is a good example with the queen and cardinal acting independently of the king 'for the good of the realm'. Of course the adviser may not have key information, or be lacking in other areas of rulership leading to poor decisions despite their skill - or if left too free a hand could be a great captain in the making.

In a realm run by a novice the lieutenants may need to be given free rein as the regent does not have the necessary skills - but this defers problems rather than solves them in the long run - all good fun for the devious GM of course

[kgauck]

As for situations where the adviser runs the show, this is a recurrent theme in literature and history - 3 musketeers is a good example with the queen and cardinal acting independently of the king 'for the good of the realm'.

That's funny. I actually had Richelieu in mind when I wrote my post.