Ber Falaïa

[Rey]

It all depends what sources you use. By some, outside of Greece, Bulgaria, Ukraine and western part of Russia, there is no Europe.

Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazakhstan and Georgia are boundary countries that mostly fall into Asian area (mostly because of the cultural similarities). And again, some include them, too.

But when you cut them out, the Balkans represents SE of Europe. And that is the term everybody uses around here, nevermind the maps. Believe me, I live here.

Even if you include partial Asian countries, the Balkans would represent southern Europe, not a central one. Don't believe everything you read in the books and on the internet.

And btw, the Balkans area is overstretched by many.

[kgauck]

Sorontar used a reasonable authority. While I am aware of there are local nationalists who offer differing definitions, I am also aware their definitions are not generally considered, let alone accepted. The purpose of this discussion was where steppe is located, so the location of Europe was assumed to follow the generally accepted definitions as understood by the international community.

[Rey]

That's like saying the fifth house on the block grows garlic because it says so in the newspapers, although the houses around them see that they have an orchard.

Nationalism has nothing to do with it, the region is historically known by that name. Europeans, not locals, call it like that. If it were the way the locals want it, the term "Balkans" would exclude half the nations they've put in that "bucket".

Nevermind now, sorry for off topic.

[kgauck]

That's like saying the fifth house on the block grows garlic because it says so in the newspapers, although the houses around them see that they have an orchard.

Unlike an orchard, one finds where Europe ends by consulting an atlas, not by looking out the window.

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4447
> ...
> Unlike an orchard, one finds where Europe ends by consulting an atlas, not by looking out the window.
>
Actually where Europe ends has often changed and was controversial -
look only at this map with various eastern borders of "Europe":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Europa_geografisch_karte_de_1.png

[Rey]

There is a difference between knowing where you live and what someone else is thinking where you live.

I've seen some bad decision making. Doing work on Vosgaard reminds me how the Russians must laugh their asses out when they see people (mostly westerners) try to spell their geographical names.

Some atlases are made by people that have no clue what's on the other side of the river that flows in front of them. Recently, I've discovered "the Balkan mountains", a term that I've never heard in my entire life. "Sure, it's on the Balkans, let's call it Balkan mountains."

And on the other hand, no one even has a clue where Dinaridic massif is.

[Rey]

Actually where Europe ends has often changed and was controversial -
look only at this map with various eastern borders of "Europe":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Eu...karte_de_1.png

According to ULEB and UEFA, Israel is in Europe, too.

[kgauck]

So, ConjurerDragon, when Sorontar posted a citation from ask.com, I should have used a historic definition of Europe and ignored the clear meaning of what he was saying?

Perhaps you and Rey would prefer to pick and choose the meanings you want rather than the ones most likely to be understood because they are the commonly agreed to.

When someone posts something like:

Perhaps steppe (http://www.answers.com/topic/steppe):
A vast semiarid grass-covered plain, as found in southeast Europe, Siberia, and central North America.

...I should go find a historical definition of Europe that makes this statement meaningless? And further, I should change the issue from where the grass is to instead where Europe is?

I'm afraid I view the point of communication to be a clear understanding of what the other fellow is saying, not to redefine his sense to mean what I would prefer it to mean. That, my friend, is the road to confusion.

I know quite a bit about geography, and one of the things I know is what constitutes irrelevant additional information.

Now I suppose I should expect someone who thinks they are informing me that North America has no steppe, but instead has prairie (the difference being the height of the grass).